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Author Topic: Earths 1 and 2  (Read 5310 times)
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Great Rao
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« on: December 08, 2006, 05:40:27 AM »

In this thread Bepppo writes:

Quote from: Super Monkey
The rules are not something I came up with on my own, but something we all decided. All the threads are still here if anyone wants to read them.

The only other thread I've been able to find that mentions the Earth-1/Earth-2 issue is this one.  In it, Telle writes:
Quote from: Telle
Managing these various parallel versions of the canonical characters is shaping up to be a Crisis of Multiversal proportions.

I can't remember having a specific discussion on the issue of Earth-1/Earth-2 redundancy.  The original author of the Great Superman Book never acknowledged the concept of Earth-2 as canonical references to it came relatively late in his project.

For the most part, the majority of "redundant" Earth-2 (and other) entries are just that: unless they differ in some essential way from their E-1 counterparts, it is hard to justify separate entries.  Of course, even very minor players in the canon will eventually receive entries (if they haven't already), so efforts to police these will prove hopeless.  Some E-2 entries already link to E-1 articles.

The difference between some E-1 and 2 characters is cut and dried (the E-1 Planet staff is the E-2 Star staff).  As for the villains, Ultra encounters a Superman who works for the Star in the 1930s (his last appearance is Act 21, 1940 whereas the last mention of the Star is Act 22) and so may be said to be strictly an Earth-2 phenomenon if not for the musings in the Planet and Star (and on their employees) entries by Fleisher.  Tough call but I would be willing to exile Ultra to Earth-2 and eliminate any entry for an E-1 Ultra.  Other villains who made intitial Golden Age appearances outside of the Canon, like the Wizard, are even harder.  Detective 27 is extra-canonical but rates a reference as the first app of E-1 Batman.  By that logic, the Wizard is an E-1 villain with no analogue in the canon except as an E-2 villain.

These are the paradoxes that the Mr and Mrs Superman authors enjoyed playing with and I think they were very careful and selective in their use of villains, restricting them mainly to the period before Act 22.

Tough questions!  No easy answers that I can see.


Quote from: Super Monkey
But to review, here is a FAQ if you will:

Who is the Golden Age Superman?

He is the Earth-1 Superman from 1938 to 1955.

Is he different from the Silver Age (1956-1970) or the Bronze Age (1971-1986) Superman?

No they are all the same person and all of their stories take place on Earth-1 as stated in the Comics and in TGSB

I agree that they are all one person in the comics and in TGSB - but I don't think that that one person is called the "Earth-1 Superman".  I think that Superman was first referred to as the "Earth-1 Superman" at some point in the 1970s - but before that, he was just "Superman."  I don't think the Golden Age Superman can be retconned into being either the Earth-2 Superman nor the Earth-1 Superman.

Quote from: Super Monkey
What is Earth-2?

Earth-2 was first encountered by the Flash in The Flash No. 123, Sep 1961: "Flash of Two Worlds!". It is a Parallel World. It is based on the comics of the Golden Age.

So does that mean that all the Golden Age comics happen on Earth-2?

No, it is only based on the Golden Age, it is not the actual Golden Age. Many of the real life Golden Age Superman stories and facts are contradicted in many Earth-2 Stories. For example, Lex Luthor lost his hair pretty early on during the Golden Age but he never did on Earth-2. The Daily Planet appears on 1940 until 1986. But on Earth-2, it doesn't exist, but rather in its place the Daily Star. His name was Kal-El, but on Earth-2 his name is Kal-L There are many more examples.

So the Earth-2 Superman is not the same person as the Golden Age Superman?

No, the real Golden Age happen during the years 1938 to 1955. The Earth-2 Superman doesn't appear in any comic book until 1977, in our Bronze Age!

Agreed.

Quote from: Super Monkey
But, what about this Earth-1 you keep referring to, that didn't appear until the Silver Age!

No, this is wrong. Only the name didn't appear until this time, but the world itself existed since 1938 (in our world). It doesn't make sense to call something Earth-1 if there are not other Earths to compare it too.

In this case I agree with the questioner.

Quote from: Super Monkey
Ok, but how can I tell if something took place on Earth-2 or not?

ALL Earth-2 stories always label themselves as Earth-2 stories, so you are in luck, if the story doesn't claim to take place on Earth-2, then it doesn't take place on Earth-2. Pretty easy huh?

But, wait a second, sometimes DC referred to the Earth-2 Superman as the Golden Age Superman! I mean, LOOK at this monkey boy! In ya face sucker!!! http://superman.nu/tales2/e2-origin/

Is that comics listed here: http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Canonical_sources ?

Yeah, I didn't think so, nice try though.

Once again, TGSB just like DC Comics treats the Golden, Silver and Bronze Age Superman as the same person and thus so do we.
Agreed.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 05:42:05 AM by Great Rao » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2006, 11:40:23 AM »

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But, what about this Earth-1 you keep referring to, that didn't appear until the Silver Age!

No, this is wrong. Only the name didn't appear until this time, but the world itself existed since 1938 (in our world). It doesn't make sense to call something Earth-1 if there are not other Earths to compare it too.

In this case I agree with the questioner.

Earth-1 is not a proper name, but a label. There was no reason to refer to Earth as anything but Earth if the heroes never knew other Earths existed. Only after the discovery of other Earths was there first a need to label their Earth... Earth-1. Earth-1 wasn't a brand new Earth, but just a label in order to set it apart from the other Earths (Earth-2, Earth-3, Earth-S, etc) which were discovered.
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2006, 01:17:12 PM »

I bet some of this comes down to agreement on canonical sources as well, or the ability of a newcomer to write TO canonical sources.

For instance, this story arc in JLA (/JSA) doesn't just hint at an Earth-2 Superman, it shows him and names him (and this was 1970, well before the 1977 Superman of Earth-2).  I assume its very hard for an outsider stumbling on Supermanica to disregard these stories.

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=23630&zoom=4
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006, 11:27:22 PM »

is this page that hard to understand?
http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I feel it is pretty easy to follow. I believe Rao just re-wrote it a bit to make it even easier but any suggestions to make this project idiot/fool proof, please suggest it! I rather encourage people to add and edit rather than scare them into not joining the fun.

Perhaps we should add a real FAQ? Rather than the mock one I posted here (yes I was talking to myself there Wink)
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 11:49:05 PM »

is this page that hard to understand?
http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

You're probably going to hate this but, yeah, I think that people cruising in simply don't separate Superman from DC comics as a whole...if they see Superman in the JLA or Justice Society, they go with the entire DC scenario.

You have to admit that posters here have a pretty sophisticated understanding and can make the separation.

Here's what I see in my head...someone runs across a link or googles a favorite DC or Superman concept, goes to Supermanica and thinks "how could they leave out X?"...and you have to admit that DC as a whole did a lot to foster the idea that Earth-2 was the Golden Age in the 60s and 70s.  One thing that I think that TGSB did well was avoid Earth-2 because Earth-2 was defined by comics that weren't Superman (even though he participated in them).

So yeah, I think a good FAQ would help, at least for non-stubborn people who are willing to actually read (I'm sure that includes about 3% of people on the internet  Cool )
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 09:54:06 PM »

Wow.  When faced with the problem of indoctrinating newbies, my immediate response is, "why did we make this thing so seemingly arbitrary and slavishly devoted to The Great Superman Book by Fleisher?"

I must confess, half the time I think of the Golden Age Superman as the Earth-2 Superman!  It involves a different mindset to think about E-2 adventures only existing post-1970 (or post-1961 if we are feeling charitable).

I am also beginning to feel that our arbitrary choice of canon titles will have to be expanded at some point to include the JLA, at the very least.

For the moment I will try to be more diligent in welcoming newcomers/policing entries as well  --I've been pretty dormant on Supermanica lately but maybe over the Holidays?  The FAQ is a good idea, as is greater clarity about E-2.  Maybe we could work on a lengthier, Fleisher-style article on the subject.

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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 10:02:21 PM »

Maybe we could work on a lengthier, Fleisher-style article on the subject.

Oh, I see that Rao has already started this:

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Earths_1_and_2

When I read that I thought the next thing to do would be to add a "Meta" category, but then realized that the "Supermanica" serves just fine.  In addition to using the "talk" feature more often, we should add more articles in "Supermanica" to expand on the differences between fandom's view of the canon and Supermanica's view.  Another area of clarity would maybe be the actual Ages --fans love to dispute these dates and maybe we could explain our own take. Or does this invite too much deviation from our main project?

 
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 10:30:44 PM »

I also think people click on the articles hyperlink pretty quickly.  I think that there should be a hyperlink to this page on the homepage in the text, maybe linked to text saying "read these articles before adding entries" or something similar.

http://superman.nu/wiki/index.php/Category:Supermanica

And I do like the Earth 1 and 2 article, maybe just a reference to its 1960s history, and a definite comic that shows the first appearance of the Earth-2 Superman in the JLA along with saying that this is not a part of the canonical references for Supermanica.
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