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He has the power to change the world, but he doesn't have the right to.
You seem to be agreeing with me, which is a disturbing state of affairs, but there we are. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Superman has imposed limits upon himself because he has always worked with the authorities (I am not even considering the Golden Age Superman because he is not my favourite version, and I doubt he's yours either), and now he is in the very uncomfortable position of realising he is at odds with those authorities, ie. the American government, and now he is right on the edge of what they can get him to do and what he can stand to live with. You understand this, yet you are still critical of what I said in my post. He KNOWS he hasn't the right (as you put it), but he SO wants to do it (ie. change the system) he can hardly stand it. Can you see that? I think so.... and that is why I say, he is still our Superman in that comic.
I don't know why it's disturbing, I think I usually agree with you. Just not on this subject.
I know why Clark fails to act, but unlike you I don't see any reason to laud him for it. My point is that Miller bends over backwards to present a world that's in really bad shape, and the clear implication is that when things get this bad, it's up to the stand-out people of this world to step up and make a difference. Bruce meets the challenge; Clark does not.
You won't like me referencing a Miller quote again, but he once said about DKR that superheroes in general, and Batman in particular, work best in a world that's gone rotten. Otherwise, why do you need a guy in a mask who operates outside the law? If the cops and judges were doing their jobs, Bruce could relax and play polo all day.
Here's where we get to a big difference between Batman and Superman, at least in my view. Batman is most effective in situations where he can make a difference; specifically, where his extra-legal tactics bring about the resolution to problems bureaucracy and "the establishment" cannot fix. Slinking around at night conking baddies whom the law can't touch is the kind of thing that gets us cheering. But the minute the world becomes safe, as soon as the police get control of the city and it's safe to go out at night, Batman becomes just a fool in a silly costume. Thus, Batman works best for me in the era of organized crime...I think his Golden Age was the best.
Superman, on the other hand, works best as a defender of the status quo, in stories where the happiness and well-being of society are temporarily (if gravely) challenged by some evildoer or natural disaster, and Superman through his great powers defeats the villain or stops the disaster and happiness and tranquility are restored at story's end. Thus, Superman works best for me in the 50s and 60s, leading parades and opening museums between missions, whereas Batman in the same period doing the same things becomes a pathetic clown.
Miller's goal here was to tell the ultimate Batman story, and so he created the bleakest, most out-of-control world he could imagine. This allows Batman to shine, but it points up the utter uselessness of Superman in his Silver Age permutation. He is not able, by his own ethics, to fix anything that matters. He can stop a bomb from falling on a city. He can save a few GIs from being blown up. But he cannot improve the quality of life for anyone. He cannot make the world one worth living in.
When I say Superman hasn't the right to fix the world, what I mean is that Miller makes us hate him for it. The world needs help and he is useless. For the sake of the character, I'd rather see him leave Earth and go somewhere he might matter.
As to what the artist intended, well, I have a view on that and I've expressed it. But there's more. You will not like my opinion on this, but I have always felt that if an artist NEEDS to explain his work at length in order for it to be understood, it's poor art. I don't need any explanation from Frank about his comic because I read it, and it's a VERY good comic. The catch is, my interpretation is mine alone and no one else's, not even the author's. That's strange, but that's what you get with good art. I could read a few interviews with Frank and find out exactly what he intended, but I do not believe that would be as true an interpretation of the comic as my own when I read it for myself.
Well, here you're assuming that I went to the interviews with the attitude of "Tell me what to think, Frank." The fact is I was totally fascinated with the story at the time and I wanted to know all about it. I came away with the impression that Miller was going for something, and his comments reinforced those beliefs...turns out what he intended is pretty much what I took from it.
If you think you know more about Miller's work than Miller himself does, that's your right. But in my book, if Miller went in with an agenda and you took away something totally different, that just means he failed, not that he's an even better writer than he thinks.
Nightwing, you seem to have become cynical lately. That's an observation, not a criticism. There is great misery in our real world also, and societies worse than what is presented in the comic. Yet there is always a flipside, and that is where you will find the "triumph" of the human spirit, even if you gag on such ideas. Superman is the one character that would believe "where there is life, there's hope", and I totally disagree with you that to be alive in a decaying society is worse than being killed by bombs and released from the nightmare -- for that is exactly what you're implying. "Thanks for nothing"? I think you're wrong. Furthermore, Batman is not the only ordinary person who makes a difference in the world. Now, Bruce (arguably) has trouble understanding that, but someone like Superman would never doubt it.
What do you mean, lately?
No, I wasn't implying that it's better to die than to live miserably. What I'm implying is that it's better to give your best effort than to give half measures. Bruce tries to do more than he's capable of; Clark refuses to live up to his potential. If a man has the power to make the world a better place, then what is he if he doesn't do it?
I know, I know...he has a code against interfering...he wants us to find our own way. Those are traits I've lauded in other threads, but here, again, Miller has created a world where those virtues become vices. As the old saying goes, the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And that's pretty much what we can count on Clark for in this story.
As I said before, I think Miller manages to make both characters likable yet unlikeable, good and bad. In the Silver Age, a guy who did the things Bruce did in this story would be a villain, period. But in this story, a paragon of Silver Age ethics...as Clark is...becomes a useless clod.
My interpretation of the comic, coming from what I know and like about Superman, is that Superman is not happy about the culture anymore, yet it is HIS culture, and of course it will take time for him to reject it. Who knows when that point will be.....
But that's my point...how bad does it have to get before he does something? Miller creates a situation where we as readers are desperate for someone to take action. We want some kind of vicarious release...we want to see someone kick butts and take names. Ultimately Batman provides all this and Superman does not. You are satisfied with seeing Superman wrestle with his inner demons and resist the temptation to break his code. But most readers just see a guy who failed to give them what they wanted. Let's face it, Ghandi is a great movie and Dirty Harry is a great movie, but put Ghandi in a Dirty Harry movie and you'd lose patience with him fast.
.....and if that point is reached in the sequel, then I would like to read it.
If you read that one and like it, then I give up.
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But historically superheroes are about more than that. At their genesis, anyway, they were about empowering the powerless, about cutting through the red tape and doing what's right regardless of the "justice system."
Don't come the raw prawn with me, Nightwing. Please use the Superman we grew up with to back your argument, not some "historical" version that is far removed from the characters I'm talking about.
See above. Miller has created a world to rival the one Batman was created in. In 1939, we had Hitler's armies on the March, rampant poverty and social injustices at home, organized crime running amuck. It was a world that needed a Batman. Or a Joe/Jerry Superman. No I'm not a big fan of that kind of Superman; I think it's just too pat for him to knock down straw men every issue and solve problems in 10 pages that we can't really solve in decades. I prefer the Silver Age Superman, defender of an idyllic world where even Luthor is more misguided than outright evil. But in Miller's world, like 1939, we NEED the guy who takes charge and gets things done. We don't need a god who sits on his hands.
Do I think Miller hates Superman? Honestly I have no idea. Do I think he sees no merit in the character? DKR isn't enough to judge that by. But I do think he understands that in a story where Batman is truly being what he was designed to be, Superman can't come off well. And vice versa. It just so happens this is a Batman story.