Why Superman II: The Donner Cut is the prequel to Superman Returns

[Gangbuster]

I suggested, rather coincidentally on June 30, that maybe Superman Returns wasn't the sequel to Superman II. Maybe it was the sequel to Superman II: The Donner Cut. After watching the two movies in sequence this week, I think this theory may be right.
(see old thread here: http://superman.nu/smf/index.php?topic=2772.0 )

I haven't read the Superman Returns comics that come between Superman II and Superman Returns, but as things stood, Lester's version of Superman II couldn't come before Superman Returns, for a number of reasons.

1) The Green Crystal. In Superman II the green crystal was found in the rubble, and used to return Superman's powers to him...only it didn't show how this happened. In the Donner Cut, the same scenario occurred, but with extra footage showing how it happened. How could Luthor use the crystals in Superman Returns if they had been destroyed? Perhaps they weren't destroyed, thanks to Superman's time reversal in the Donner Cut.

2) In Superman Returns, Kitty remarks to Lex in the Fortress that he's acting like he's been there before. He pauses (similar to Lois' deja vu moment at the end of the Donner cut) but does not respond that he has. This suggests that it probably never happened, if for no other reason than the fact that Lex wouldn't use the same trick twice. It's likely that he never escaped with Mrs. Teschmacher the first time, and never  got the opportunity to track "alpha waves" to the North Pole, until now.

3) At the end of Lester's Superman II, Superman promises the President to never leave them again. And then he does, if Superman Returns is the sequel. But if it follows the Donner cut, Superman never broke any such promise.

4) The Baby...which is the more likely Superman scenario?

Scenario A, Lester: Superman sleeps with Lois, super-kisses the memory away, and 5-6 years later she discovers that her child is Superman's, leading her to assume that Superman has probably raped her at some point..or

Scenario B, Donner: Superman and Lois mutually agree to end their relationship, Superman travels back through the time barrier to keep it from happening, but hooks up with her some time later...as Superman, not Clark. This results in a super-lovechild.

5) "The Son becomes the Father..." Superman never heard this in his adult life, according to Lester's Superman II. But according to Donner's, Superman retains the memories of the Jor-Elogram saying this before giving him his powers back.


So...did Bryan Singer ever see the Donner Cut footage? Yes: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=91990

Tom Mankiewicz: "I’ve met Bryan Singer a couple of times and he said when he was doing X-Men he would go back to his trailer and just watch Superman all the time. He wanted to bring Superman Returns back to the sensibility of the first Superman. Bryan used to come down and visit us in the editing room over the summer when we were putting this new cut of Superman II together again with [film editor and preservationist] Michael Thau."

If you watch Superman, Superman II: The Donner Cut, and Superman Returns in sequence there is a great deal of clarity. Not so with Lester's film.

[Great Rao]

I've changed the timeline as you've suggested.

Donner's Superman I and II are clearly about Superman and Jor-El's relationship, between son and father - about the son becoming the father and the father the son. This is clearly continued and extended into Superman Returns, especially the final scene with Jason.  So whether or not the continuity all completely matches, the three movies seem to me to be a trilogy centered around that idea.

The only thing missing from Superman Returns was the bit at the end where he flies around the Earth to turn back time.  Then all three movies would have been completely identical.

[Uncle Mxy]

Of course, Superman's meddling with the timestream could've forked off multiple continuums (continua?).  Obviously, Superman II was a Hypertime concoction resulting from his interference in Superman I.  III and IV was one particular fork in time degenerating.  Donner's II was another Hypertime fork.  Heck, in one alternate timestream, he ends up on Mackinac Island and uses super-hypnosis to go back somewhere in time to meet up with Jane Seymour.  But that's a different story. 

Seriously, I think trying to wedge continuity out of Superman Returns has enough problems without adding the Donner cut to the mix. 

[Aldous]

The whole idea of Superman being able to turn back time or change history is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

[Great Rao]

The whole idea of Superman being able to turn back time or change history is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

Hey, it could have worked in Superman Returns.  They could have written the movie so that that's how Superman eliminates the new Kryptonian continent, because Lex never got the crystal, etc.  But with all kinds of inconsistencies like the widow still stays dead, Superman still "returned" and found out about Jason, etc.  It'd be great! 

[nightwing]

2) In Superman Returns, Kitty remarks to Lex in the Fortress that he's acting like he's been there before. He pauses (similar to Lois' deja vu moment at the end of the Donner cut) but does not respond that he has. This suggests that it probably never happened, if for no other reason than the fact that Lex wouldn't use the same trick twice. It's likely that he never escaped with Mrs. Teschmacher the first time, and never  got the opportunity to track "alpha waves" to the North Pole, until now.

I suppose this could work.  We see in the Donner cut that people seem to be vaguely aware that something odd has happened in their lives.  Perry gets up from his desk and dashes over to his door, only to stop, look around bewildered, shake his head and go back to work.  Lois tries to type "the biggest story of my career" and can't remember what it is.  It makes sense, then, that if Luthor really is a super-genius, his mind might be able to access a tad more than most people's.  He might have some powerful intuition, some subconcious pull to the North Pole. 

Scenario B, Donner: Superman and Lois mutually agree to end their relationship, Superman travels back through the time barrier to keep it from happening, but hooks up with her some time later...as Superman, not Clark. This results in a super-lovechild.

This is actually an argument not to count either version of Superman II.  The only thing you need that movie for is to explain when the two had sex.  It's just as easy to say they did it sometime when we weren't looking.

On the other hand, there's the question of whether Lois *remembers* having sex with Superman.  She seems genuinely convinced Jason is not his kid, until the end when she finds out the same way the rest of us do.  The temptation is to think her confusion arises from the mind-wipe, but maybe not.  After all, the "Maury" show is full of women who think they know who the father of their child is, but are dead wrong.

The big problem is that considering this is supposed to be the romance of the century, Lois moves on awfully fast.  Jason is 5 years old; Superman has been gone five years.  In order for there to be even a possibility that Richard is the father of Jason, Lois would have to have slept with him pretty much as soon as Superman vanished.  Actually, allowing for nine months of pregnancy, she'd have to have been "cheating" on Superman even before he left.

5) "The Son becomes the Father..." Superman never heard this in his adult life, according to Lester's Superman II. But according to Donner's, Superman retains the memories of the Jor-Elogram saying this before giving him his powers back.

Well, the Jor-Elogram (I LOVE that!) did tutor Superman for 12 years, so it's possible he said it more than once.  It's also possible Superman is so much his father's son that he says the phrase thinking he made it up himself, never concious of the fact that he's repeating history.

[Great Rao]

The big problem is that considering this is supposed to be the romance of the century, Lois moves on awfully fast.  Jason is 5 years old; Superman has been gone five years.  In order for there to be even a possibility that Richard is the father of Jason, Lois would have to have slept with him pretty much as soon as Superman vanished.

It's been a while since I saw Superman Returns so I don't remember the details of this - but does Richard actually believe that he is Jason's biological father?  I was under the impression that he came along and started a relationship with a single mom (Lois).

[nightwing]

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time, either.  I watched the first hour last night, but had to go to bed. 

Maybe I'm misremebering the whole thing; somehow I thought it was implied that Richard could be the father. 

So what are we to think about Lois?  Did she have a kid as a result of the Superman II sex, and can't remember who she slept with, or indeed whether it's an immaculate conception?  Or...are we all assuming the events of Lester's Superman II are relevant (if they even happened) when in fact they don't factor in at all; ie Lois had some sexual tryst with Superman we did not see and which she remembers just fine (no magic kiss amnesia here).  Meaning she's always known who's kid it is, but keeps it from Superman because she doesn't want him in Jason's life?  Or was she as surprised as we were to see Jason exhibit super powers at the end of the film, and only then figured it all out?

Rather an important plot point not to have made it any clearer than it is.