Why Superman II: The Donner Cut is the prequel to Superman Returns

[nightwing]

Okay, I watched the rest last night.

I was reminded of what I thought on first viewing; Lois seems to know who's kid it is all along, but keeps it from both Jason and Superman.  When the kid crushes the guy with the piano, he tells Lois "I'm sorry, Mommy," which I originally took to mean "I know I'm not supposed to use my powers in public" (though I suppose he might just as well be saying, "sorry I killed a man back there").  Then there's that moment where he goes to use his inhaler and he doesn't need to.  Is this because using his powers has suddenly "cured" his asthma, or because the whole "asthma" thing was just part of his secret ID, and now he figures what's the point?  Even before he throws the piano, there's a moment when Lois, on the floor, looks at him desperately.  It could mean, "what's going to become of my poor child?" but it could just as easily mean, "Hey, super-powered kid, I could use a little help over here!"

It was only later, reading all the comments on the web, that I picked up on the idea that Lois couldn't remember Jason's parentage because of the super-hypnosis kiss in S:II. 

[Gangbuster]

Then there's that moment where he goes to use his inhaler and he doesn't need to.  Is this because using his powers has suddenly "cured" his asthma, or because the whole "asthma" thing was just part of his secret ID, and now he figures what's the point? 

My wife seemed to think that Kryptonite had made Jason more powerful. Remember, Lex held some up to his face and he seemed unaffected. Then, when he grew a giant kryptonite island, Jason suddenly was able to throw pianos and use telescopic vision. Maybe an unlikely scenario, but interesting.

Here are some more points to ponder, though. How would Lois not recognize the father of her child when Clark comes back to work? How would she know about secret identities if she's never suspected Superman of having one?

[Klar Ken T5477]

Sloppy writing all the way around.

And no real understanding of who and what Superman really is.

A pox on ALL your houses - Donner II, Lester II and Singer!

Where's Zod now that we need him?

[nightwing]

My wife seemed to think that Kryptonite had made Jason more powerful. Remember, Lex held some up to his face and he seemed unaffected. Then, when he grew a giant kryptonite island, Jason suddenly was able to throw pianos and use telescopic vision. Maybe an unlikely scenario, but interesting.

Well, here we see the problem with the film.  A lot of things are never explained, so we're left to guess.  Usually it helps when actors reveal things through their facial expressions, but we've got a fairly wooden crowd here (except Routh, who I really like), so we're up a stump.

Is Jason affected by the Kryptonite?  What is that look on his face?  Pain? Fear? Curiosity?  He doesn't writhe in agony, but is he supposed to be emoting a certain degree of discomfort (as a half-human, maybe it doesn't hurt him as much)?  I can't tell (Luthor seems undecided as well).  Similarly, I think there are number of places where a visual cue from Lois might have helped me along, but I can't read her, either. Whether this is because of the limited range of the actors or because Singer told them "don't give it away too soon," I don't know, but when it's all over I still don't know what to think.

Here are some more points to ponder, though. How would Lois not recognize the father of her child when Clark comes back to work?

Well, this is just another argument for leaving Superman II out of the equation altogether.  Either Lois recovers from the Lester mind-wipe or the whole sex act is undone by Donner's Earth-spinning.  If in either scenario she somehow remembers the sex, she MUST remember the secret ID, since in both cases, Superman reveals it before sleeping with her.

Therefore, Superman Returns, if it fits AT ALL into previous continuity, is a sequel to Superman: The Movie, and Superman II -- in either form -- never happened.  Sometime after the end of the first film, Superman and Lois slept together and we didn't see it. 

Actually, I prefer that to watching them get it on in Superman II.  It would have been more rewarding dramatically to have us suddenly realize "wow, Superman and Lois DID IT!" than to actually watch them get funky in that Harlequin Romance bed scene in the second film.

[Super Monkey]

Therefore, Superman Returns, if it fits AT ALL into previous continuity, is a sequel to Superman: The Movie, and Superman II -- in either form -- never happened.  Sometime after the end of the first film, Superman and Lois slept together and we didn't see it. 

Actually, I prefer that to watching them get it on in Superman II.  It would have been more rewarding dramatically to have us suddenly realize "wow, Superman and Lois DID IT!" than to actually watch them get funky in that Harlequin Romance bed scene in the second film.

I have said this from the beginning. If Superman 2 (any edit) actually happen in the Superman Returns timeline, then why did Ma Kent tell Superman that they didn't know if there are others like him (something like that). Clearly, if Superman 2 happen, then Clark would have known as would have the whole world! But it didn't happen, so as far as Superman knows, he is the only one who survived from Krypton.

[Great Rao]

I have said this from the beginning. If Superman 2 (any edit) actually happen in the Superman Returns timeline, then why did Ma Kent tell Superman that they didn't know if there are others like him (something like that). Clearly, if Superman 2 happen, then Clark would have known as would have the whole world! But it didn't happen, so as far as Superman knows, he is the only one who survived from Krypton.

That's a really good point.  I guess we won't know for certain until Zod (returns?) in the Superman Returns sequel.  Maybe we'll get a live-action Krypto too, that'd be the bee's knees.  Krypto vs. Zod!  I can see it now... 

[leandar]

I have said this from the beginning. If Superman 2 (any edit) actually happen in the Superman Returns timeline, then why did Ma Kent tell Superman that they didn't know if there are others like him (something like that). Clearly, if Superman 2 happen, then Clark would have known as would have the whole world! But it didn't happen, so as far as Superman knows, he is the only one who survived from Krypton.

I've come to believe that there has to be some meshing of the two versions of Superman II in order to make a coherent universe in regards to how Superman Returns fits into the scheme. 

As far as what Martha told Clark in regards to not finding others like him, the Lester cut of Superman II was very ambiguous as to the fate of Zod and the others.  I know that the deleted material was there that showed them being arrested by the Arctic Patrol (?!) but as it wasn't in the theatrical/video version, it does leave room for the possibility that they died in that chasm in the Fortress of Solitude.  At least I think it does.  And of course I know that the Donner cut shows them being put back in the Phantom Zone with Supe's time reversal.  So could it be that saying that they don't exist be valid even if they are back in the Phantom Zone be valid as they are not existing within our own universe?

And going back to the mesh thing, I've long believed that seeing how Superman Returns turned out, that while it does seem a lot more valid as coming from events of the Donner cut, having Lois pregnant with Clark's child and Lex knowing where the Fortress still was in that way makes the film more of a sequel to the Lester cut.  Otherwise those are huge continuity gaffes.  And as far as the crystals in the Fortress being back in one piece, of course in the Donner version with the time reversal, it would have likely restored the Fortress.  And if memory serves, Donner did say that if he could have, they would have made a new ending to the film since the time reversal was stuck into the first film at Warner's request.  So who knows what impact that revised ending would have had, had Donner and Mankiewicz (sp?) been able to do that.  But if it were from the Lester cut, I guess I would speculate that since the Lester cut left the restoration of Clark's powers vague and open to imagination, perhaps one could speculate that restoring his powers didn't drain all the energy in that crystal and that using that crystal after everything was over he was able to rebuild the crystals and the library of knowledge and that's how it was intact in regards to the Fortress being restored. 

There are ways for it to be a sequel to the Donner cut.

There are ways for it to be a sequel to the Lester cut.

I suppose, in the final analysis, it'll be up to the individual viewer to decide.  *shrugs*

[ZenCreature]

My only major problem with Superman Returns is the way that Lex Luthor Returns. He misappropriated nuclear weapons!!!%&$*#$@

 The "I got released because Superman didn't show up to testify against me at my hearings (for killing the two guards in Addis Abbaba)" line is HOGWASH. The government would have had Luthor in a hole so deep even Kal's XRay vision wouldn't be able to find him. Either that, or they would have put LL to work for the government in some ultrasecret think tank.

Whew - I had to get that off my chest! Thanks peopel!