superman.nuMary Immaculate of Lourdes NewtonHolliston School Committeefacebook    
  •   forum   •   COUNTDOWN TO MIRACLE MONDAY: "DEMONS!" •   fortress   •  
Superman Through the Ages! Forum
News: Superman Through the Ages! now located at theAges.superman.nu
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 07, 2023, 07:39:08 PM


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Last, Truly Great, Original Super-Hero Ever Created  (Read 16725 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Aldous
Superman Squad
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 843


Downunder


« on: January 13, 2007, 04:25:09 AM »

I'm picking it's Wolverine, in the 70s.
Logged
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 05:35:06 AM »

He's a superhero?  Huh?

Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
JulianPerez
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1168



« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 08:30:47 AM »

Whoa, no mention of Jack Kirby's Fighting Fetus?  Smiley

Wolverine had a hardcore, "bad boy" coolness about him, certainly, and that issue where he singlehandedly takes down the Hellfire Club when all the rest of the X-Men had been captured was amazing to read. It was like you could SEE a star being born.

But there have been some original characters since then.

Not all of them are "truly great," but you can't blame the guy for trying. Most of the villains later-period Kirby created in the 1970s fits this mould, like Doughboy in CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Though the execution was uneven, the idea of Booster Gold - a guy becoming a superhero for money and endorsements - was certainly an original one. Then you have Sleepwalker, who lasted for several years and was a cult favorite, who was a creature that sprang into existence only when his secret identity was asleep and dreaming.

The great Roger Stern, Superman's best Iron Age writer by a long shot, gave the Super-Mythos the gift of Maxima.

I'd feel guilty if I didn't mention the Kurt Busiek characters that he created in the 1980s (before he became the big superstar he is today) like the heroes of the LIBERTY PROJECT. The concept itself wasn't wildly original, but you had a character like Slick, who had powers over friction.

That's the hardest thing you can possibly do, in superhero comics, is create a power nobody has seen before, or a power combination nobody's seen before. There was Jolt, who was a super-athlete, but also had an electrical release touch, or Charcoal, who was a big rock guy a la the Thing, but who could flame his body and fly, too - not behavior you usually see in your big strong guy.

Then you have the heroes of Busiek's Power Company, like Striker Z, who was a stuntman whose power is being a "living battery" to power an arsenal of gadgetry, or Skyrocket, that has a suit that changes energy from one type to another. When somebody asked Striker Z what he thought of being a superhero, his response was, "I ah. just never thought about it."

Englehart's STRANGERS had many original characters; with the exception of the robot girl that shoots electricity and the "ham and cheese sandwich" personality Atom Bob, just about every character on that team was an original idea. The guy that burns with rainbow colors, each color giving him a different superpower, for instance, or Elena a fashoin designer and her ability to hit anything.

I'm a big fan of Kurt Busiek, but I'm not as big a fan of his ASTRO CITY as a lot of other people are, because it depresses me to see someone as obviously bubbling with ideas and originality as Busiek waste his time with stories that feel like ideas he pitched to DC or Marvel and were rejected. "Hey, look, there's Superman and Wonder Woman out on a date!" (wink, wink) The best issues of Astro City are the ones that quite clearly explore an idea nobody has done before: Junkman, for instance...and the idea of a super-villain that just GETS AWAY with it, was as magnificent as it is original.

I may be the only person in the universe that prefers POWER COMPANY to ASTRO CITY. So be it.

A while ago, SuperMonkey and I got into a conversation where somebody made the observation that great new ideas aren't very common. SuperMonkey argued this is typical of writers and artists just not caring.

My response was that, since the DC and Marvel universes have been established for some time, pointing out that the flow of new ideas is slowing...is fundamentally misunderstanding how worldbuilding and serial fiction "work," and in fact, after a certain point, new ideas are not even necessarily desirable.

I used the example of JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY: it's exciting to read the first few issues because they throw out a new idea every issue or so: the Odinsword, the portal to Olympus, Lady Sif, the Warriors Three, the Flying Trolls of Thryheim, etc. But after a certain point, we start to understand what Asgard looks like. After a little while, it would not be possible to introduce an idea like a new cousin of Thor, for example, without severely trying suspension of disbelief. This is why that Kyle Rayner villain introduced by Ron "Gibbon" Marz was such a horrible idea: if Darkseid had another son, don't you think we'd KNOW about him by now?

To use another example: in the original STAR TREK, beings like the Romulans and Klingons were introduced in the first season, because that's really the only time they COULD have been introduced: when we're learning what the Star Trek cosmos looks like. Something as important to what the Trekverse's shape as the Klingon Empire CAN'T just be introduced at a later point in the game. Thus, when "new" enemy races were introduced, like the Ferengi and the Borg, they had to devote some time explaining why we'd never seen them before.

This isn't "laziness" or lack of innovation. Why create a new race when beings as established and as charismatic as the Klingons would do just fine for the story? In fact, the only reason Next Gen had to create new bad guy races was because the Klingons weren't available anymore.

Returning this conversation back to comics...well, let me put it this way: I love the Mad Thinker. Why move heaven and earth creating a new character when an established character with as much history, goodwill, and interest as the Mad Thinker would be perfect for the story you're writing? This is what I mean when I say that after a certain point, innovation isn't necessarily desirable.
Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Klar Ken T5477
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1338


Metropolis Prime, NYC, NY USA


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 02:47:15 PM »

For humor's sake, The Ripping Friends by John K.
Logged
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 04:29:39 PM »

For humor's sake, The Ripping Friends by John K.

He hates those cartoons.

None of those characters have set the world on fire Julian.


Marvel created tons and vigilantes and anti-heroes in the 1970's: Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Son of Satan, Blade, etc. But they were not Super Heroes, but something else.

DC created Swamp Thing in the 1970's, but he doesn't count.
Jacky Kirby did the whole 4th World for DC as well as OMAC, Kamandi, The Demon and the Eternals for Marvel, but those heroes never seem to work very well outside of The King himself.

Outside of the big two we have the Indies where people are forced to created everything.

There you find a few.
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for one, they were just as big as Superman and Batman during the 1980's and early 1990's then nothing.

I am sure there are some cool characters that I have never read, but if I never heard of them then I am guessing that they do not really fit the bill.


Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
JulianPerez
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1168



« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2007, 07:54:14 PM »

Quote from: Super Monkey
Marvel created tons and vigilantes and anti-heroes in the 1970's: Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Son of Satan, Blade, etc. But they were not Super Heroes, but something else.

I'd say Wolverine is a superhero, though like James Bond, he's no angel. It bothers me that a lot of writers - Morrison comes to mind here - try to make the X-Men out to be science fiction heroes, like van Vogt's Slans or the Lensmen, with no costumes and keeping the X-verse self contained. Maybe it's because of the influence of the movies, I guess.

But the X-Men, Wolverine included, as presented in the comics, are superheroes, they do wear costumes, and they do fight menaces - albeit weirder ones than the norm.

And I'd agree with you that Damien Hellstrom's superhero classification is indeed really iffy.

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Jacky Kirby did the whole 4th World for DC as well as OMAC, Kamandi, The Demon and the Eternals for Marvel, but those heroes never seem to work very well outside of The King himself.

Yeah, but most of those seventies-eighties Kirby ideas were BAD. "Doughboy?" I gotta give the K-man props for trying, but still. And what does all this nonsense with Samurai lost cities have anything to do with what the Black Panther is supposed to be about? And though it may be sacrilege to say, I never thought Kirby's NEW GODS was as good as his and Stan Lee's MIGHTY THOR. True, even I cannot take away from the charismatic terror of Darkseid, but when we're introduced to all of Darkseid's loser toadies, you started to get a "Dan Quayle" vibe: a guy whose second in commands are all nitwits. Kanto? Verman Vundabar? They all have two things in common: horrible outfits that look like they were picked out by the color blind dog from TOP TEN, and a total lack of anything resembling charisma.

I will admit, Forager was interesting, but his story was never really resolved. And the moment during the Kalibak/Orion battle when Orion gets smacked and reveals his hideous face, gave me goosebumps. "What's the matter, Kalibak? You SAID you wanted to see my face, didn't you?"

Kirby's Eternals matches or even exceeds the incredible work that the King did in MIGHTY THOR or FF with Lee (Kirby actually DID what he was trying to do with the Fourth World), but in terms of giving us great characters, nearly all of the most interesting and fascinating characters, alas, were the fascinating side characters: Karkas, Sersi, and so on.

In fact, the book would have been hella cooler if they'd have called it the KARKAS AND SERSI SHOW or something. Kirby made a mistake setting the book around guys like Ikaris and Thena, the two most boring people on the face of the earth.

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Outside of the big two we have the Indies where people are forced to created everything.

That's true, and what I'm saying is WHY and HOW that works. It's just what happens to any fictional world after a certain time: when a house is finished being built, you live in it.
Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Super Monkey
Super
League of Supermen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3435



WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2007, 08:43:33 PM »

Perhaps all the great Superheroes that need to be created have been created and there is no need for new ones at Marvel and DC. Of course, that doesn't mean that they will not stop trying, but the odds of creating another Superman or Batman or Spiderman or X-Men is slim at the big two.

There is a reason for that and it is not for lack of talent.

Indies have a better chance of creating the next big thing that Marvel or DC. The top writers and artists who have the talent of perhaps creating such a hero, rather keep them for themselves and release them as creator owned comics than to give them away to two huge faceless corps so that they could make billions off of them. Hey, if they ever want to see their hero team up with Superman or Spiderman, there are always crossovers. No need to make the same mistake as the giants of the past who died broke while the big two are still making millions of their ideas.

 

Logged

"I loved Super-Monkey; always wanted to do something with him but it never happened."
- Elliot S! Maggin
Great Rao
Administrator
Council of Wisdom
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1897



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2007, 10:09:44 PM »

As far as I know, Ms. Mystic was the first super-hero to look at the big picture and fight for all life on Earth.  That's great, and original.


Miracle Man, although allegedly a continuation of the old Marvel Man series, was for all intents and purposes a new Super-Hero once Alan Moore got his hands on him.
Logged

"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

CURRENT FORUM

Archives: OLD FORUM  -  DCMB  -  KAL-L
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Entrance ·  Origin ·  K-Metal ·  The Living Legend ·  About the Comics ·  Novels ·  Encyclopaedia ·  The Screen ·  Costumes ·  Read Comics Online ·  Trophy Room ·  Creators ·  ES!M ·  Fans ·  Multimedia ·  Community ·  Supply Depot ·  Gift Shop ·  Guest Book ·  Contact & Credits ·  Links ·  Coming Attractions ·  Free E-mail ·  Forum

Superman created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster
The LIVING LEGENDS of SUPERMAN! Adventures of Superman Volume 1!
Return to SUPERMAN THROUGH THE AGES!
The Complete Supply Depot for all your Superman needs!