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Author Topic: The Last, Truly Great, Original Super-Hero Ever Created  (Read 22876 times)
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ShinDangaioh
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« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2007, 12:54:01 PM »

Let's take a very violent super-hero and a very violent anti-hero

Sho Fukamachi aka Guyver I aka Super Inviciblis Guyver Gigantic.

Agito Makashima aka Guyver III aka Guyver Gigantic Dark.

Sho has morals compared to Agito and trys to make the best of a very bad situation.  Agito does things that are expedient and a bit easy.

Frank Castle doesn't even bother trying another way, he just kills.

Nick Fury does try to find another way, but when it comes down to it, he will pull the gun out and shoot to kill.


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nightwing
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« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2007, 02:34:29 PM »

I think the confusion here is caused by the various writers, editors, etc who have deliberately shied away from making Wolverine a superhero in the traditional sense.  Because, let's face it, a lot of comics are written and drawn today by people who find the concept of superheroes embarassing and juvenile. 

With Wolvie, they've tried to have their cake and eat it, too.  He wears a costume (usually), he has superpowers and he typically fights characters demonstrably more amoral than himself.  On the other hand, he doesn't stop bank robberies, give speeches about virtue and courage, or hide his identity from a snoopy girlfriend.  It's a formula that's made him a favorite character for modern readers, who delight in the vicarious thrills of super-goings on but whose reaction to moralizing of any sort ranges from boredom to hostility. 

But in the end, Wolverine is a superhero no matter how much Marvel tries to downplay it.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smokes a cigar like a (Howard the) duck, then it's a duck.

The "fights crime" requirement is one very few if any Marvel "heroes" would meet.  You almost have to go back to Lee and Ditko's Spider-Man to find a Marvel character who spent any real time stopping bank heists or muggings.  By now, the Marvel heroes seem (to me anyway) to be exclusively devoted to fighting costumed bad guys trying to blow up worlds, screw with time or loose monsters in the streets or whatever.  The don't fight "crime" any more than James Bond does; they're world-savers, not lawkeepers.  (I assume murders, rapes, assaults and robberies are handled in the Marvelverse the same way they are on our own Earth; by the police.)

I suppose you could change it to "fights evil," though again it gets cloudy.  Magneto and his band have a more violent and radical agenda than Xavier, but does that make it inherently evil?  (Well it did in the old days, when Maggie had the courtesy to name his group the Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants. Cheesy )  Marvel goes to some effort to paint the world in shades of gray, to the point I'm not anything qualifies as truly evil.  The job of Marvel heroes seems more along the lines of limiting damage to civilians and property, or solving differences of philosophy through fisticuffs.  In fact, for the last year they've been exclusively devoted to fighting each other in "Civil War."

I'd argue a majority of comics today don't feature "superheroes" in the traditional sense.  I'm ready to adopt the less partisan appelation, "Meta-Humans."

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Gangbuster
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2007, 06:52:17 PM »

I'd argue a majority of comics today don't feature "superheroes" in the traditional sense.  I'm ready to adopt the less partisan appelation, "Meta-Humans."

Humbug...I hate "Meta-humans."

The term had to be coined because

a) people in the DC universe are typically not mutants, so that won't work.

b) It came about when Superman was no longer the first, after Crisis. Calling people superheroes before Superman wouldn't make much sense. Then again, I can't envision the Justice Society being called meta-humans in the early 40s...they would likely have been referred to by the Nietzchean term, Supermen, if Superman hadn't been around yet. And then it wouldn't make sense to call Kal-El that. So, it's a muddled sort of mess that DC made for themselves. But we've been over that a million times.

If "Superheroes" sounds too egotistical, they still could have come up with something better than "meta-humans." Even Fatemen, or Flashmen, or Zeustians would sound better.

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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2007, 07:25:41 AM »

Mmhh!No one has mentioned Deadpool and Cable...
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2007, 09:40:51 AM »

Maybe 2. SuperPowers - abilities beyond those of ordinary humans should read 2. Abilities beyond those of ordinary humans because there are so many super-types without super powers. Is Blackhawk a super-hero? Seems like it, but you can't be sure. Is Batman? Yes -- but he hasn't any super powers. 

I might keep # 1 and leave out # 2.

I agree it's fascinating. Characters like The Punisher are a problem too.

I think Batman has mental, physical, and material abilities beyond most ordinary humans.  Definitely makes the cut, although I think Coogan makes some distinctions re: 30s-40s mystery men (although I think Sandman's gas gun is a unique "power").  Blackhawk seems another problem entirely --more on the fence.  Punisher ditto --but he was a villain/criminal in his initial scraps with Spidey and was created as a device to illustrate the difference between Spidey and a the problems of morality and heroism/vigilantism in the "real" world, I think.

I don't see why the term superhero, which predates Superman according to the Oxford folks and several other sources, would have to be abandoned by DC just because they change his origin.  I suspect metahuman is used as a catch-all term for superpowered types, good and bad, by media and gov't in the Dc-verse, whereas the folk apellation "superhero" still survives on the street.

 
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nightwing
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2007, 02:12:42 PM »

Yes, as Telle says, "meta human" identifies a person as physically gifted without commenting on their morality or character.

Which is why I prefer it to "superhero."  Most of the best-selling books at both companies feature people I wouldn't classify as "heroic" at all.  Marvel's many mutants, for example, are chiefly interested in fighting each other over philosophical issues as opposed to stopping crimes or saving lives.

Although I found "Kingdom Come" disappointing overall, it was nice to see an acknowledgement of what comics have become: wall-to-wall mob scenes of super-types obsessed with battling each other and oblivious to the lives of the "normals" all around them.


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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2007, 01:07:54 AM »

If someone still have a doubt about Wolverine being a superhero please read The Uncanny X-Men annual 11,here everybody can find a full synopsis:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldauto=2423
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2007, 02:24:50 AM »

OK,

So guys are the following comic characters SuperHeroes or something else?

The Hulk
Ghostrider
The Punisher
The Spectre
John Constantine
The Sandman (Neil Gaiman version)
Deadman
Adam Strange
Space Ranger
Adam Warlock
Shang-Chi
Morbius the Living Vampire
Rex the Wonder Dog



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