Action Comics is out of Action

[Superman Forever]

Actually, they have the same phylosophy about Superman. For the stories to be good, the important aspect is making the villains violent, more powerful and scary. Also they care more about subplots of minor characters. That's what both the Marvel writers and Geoff Johns said in interviews. Of course, only Johns like it to be gore and bloody.

[JulianPerez]

I wonder.  Have you guys seen that "Marvel Zombies" trash?

Hard to imagine a gorier or more disrespectful use of one's characters than that.

I can't find it in me to dislike Marvel Zombies as I'm not the target audience for it, and to the best of my knowledge this isn't happening in the "real" MU.

One of the reasons I'm able to be indifferent to the Hollywood style over substance antics of the Ultimates is because it's not the MU proper.

The Krypton Companion book from TwoMorrows made clear that even in the Bronze Age that were writers who really understood and loved Superman, like Maggin and Bates, and writers who wanted to do a Marvel version, like Gerry Conwey, Martin Pasko and Jim Shooter.

The ability to interview well does not necessarily indicate the ability to write well.

Actually, if anything, every interview I've read with Elliot Maggin, he comes off as slightly loony, comparing Superman to Abe Lincoln and Greek Mythology and so forth, in contrast to some of the more impressive stories he's done for both Superman and Green Arrow. On the other hand, Martin Pasko and Mark Waid come off as spectacularly funny and lucid interviewees, but they are merely competent and above-average as writers with the occasional great insight.

I don't know what you mean by "Marvel version," but I don't see how characterization-centered stories are incompatible with Superman, who is very much a complicated character.

Mark Waid and Grant Morrison are the new Elliot S! Maggin. Kurt Busiek is heir of Bates.

That leaves Johns as one of the Marvel guys...

Busiek reminds me much more of Len Wein than Bates, actually...Busiek's take on the Lois/Superman relationship (a topic that was Wein's favorite) and Superman's inner, introspective life under Busiek mirrors Wein's version of the character. The sequence where Lex Luthor realizes there's no Superman no oppose him in "Up, Up and Away," and Lex realizes how empty his life is without revenge, gave me flashbacks to the first few pages of the first Wein Galactic Golem story.

Actually, if I could compare Morrison to any Bronze Age guy, it would be Dennis O'Neil: a pro with a functional level understanding of the characters best served by being put in administration where they can do the least damage. I'd love to see Morrison as an editor much more than a writer.

I don't think its fair to judge Wolfman by his Superman stories, which showcase all of his weaknesses and none of his strengths, no more than it is fair to judge Englehart by his so-so NEW GUARDIANS, POWER MAN or SKULL THE SLAYER. Some writers just aren't cut out for Superman, who has to be written and plotted very differently and much more thoughtfully than other adventure characters...and that's not a poor reflection on them.

Funny, I was just reading Wolfman and Gil Kane's incredible JOHN CARTER WARLORD OF MARS comics, and it strikes me how well he was able to play around with the world ERB created, while staying true to it. The massive battle against a flying city was incredible. as was the sheer joyful fannishness of it; Tars Tarkas, a character ERB regrettably mostly ignored but who is beloved by fans, took center stage all the time in hois book...a sidekick like Spock or Kato, that is arguably way cooler than the hero.

Wolfman echoed all of the early ERB themes that even ERB himself forgot as time went on with his series: Mars as a dying planet,  the Tree of Life, the Atmosphere Factory, etc.

I'm not sure I'm crazy about Dejah Thoris as a warrior-princess, but she was a pre-feminist, screaming distraction and contemporary writers have to do SOMETHING to make her less useless.

It was interesting to see Frank Miller as guest-artist in JC, WARLORD OF MARS #19; he drew an awful lot like John Buscema in the early days.

[Super Monkey]

I agree, I think this analogy is doing a disservice to Marvel.

I'd say he's one of the E.C. guys.

That's not very nice, those EC guys were super creative and talented!

[Criadoman]

EC did rock.

[Michel Weisnor]

I wonder.  Have you guys seen that "Marvel Zombies" trash?

Hard to imagine a gorier or more disrespectful use of one's characters than that.

I wonder.  Have you guys seen that "Marvel Zombies" trash?

Hard to imagine a gorier or more disrespectful use of one's characters than that.

Marvel Zombies has a slight connection with Superman. It seems the original intention was not zombie Sentry but zombie Superman crossing through a dimensional rift. Obviously, Marvel couldn't get a way with it. So, Superman was recolored to look like Sentry.

As Superman Forever and Julian pointed out, you probably know what you are going to read in Marvel Cannib...err..Zombies. 

[JulianPerez]

My main problem with the "Johns is too violent" critique is that it's arbitrarily singling out Johns for a characteristic of a lot of DC comics since 2002. Violence is a big element in superhero comics, yes, but why is Johns singled out and not other writers?

Busiek, for instance. Take his JLA run for example: Ultraman used his heat-vision to flash-fry dozens of people, with their smoking corpses shown on panel. And then, during the battle with the Void Hound, Captain Marvel was literally flipped inside-out by a reverse-bomb. It was a powerful moment that drove home the idea that the JLA just might lose this one, but it was still icky to see the Big Red Cheese popped like a grape.

And that's just Busiek here. I'm not even going to go into Gail Simone's violent BIRDS OF PREY. That book aside, her portrayal of supercrime in VILLAINS UNITED, including shots to the head and gangland crime that would make Tony Soprano wince. And I already brought up Morrison's Luthor-gunning-down-the-Parasite-in-a-prison-riot.

A while back, when we were talking about INFINITE CRISIS, I think it was Nightwing that complained about the series's $3.99 per issue price tag. And while the argument that comics cost too much may be a very valid one, that can't be held against Johns or the quality of the series INFINITE CRISIS.

[nightwing]

A while back, when we were talking about INFINITE CRISIS, I think it was Nightwing that complained about the series's $3.99 per issue price tag. And while the argument that comics cost too much may be a very valid one, that can't be held against Johns or the quality of the series INFINITE CRISIS.

That's sounds like something I'd say. 

If so, what I meant was that in a day when comics are so ridiculously expensive, I have to really, really like what I see before I buy one.  Lately, Cooke's "Spirit" and the new "Brave and the Bold" meet that criteria.  A gang of so-so artists drawing beheadings, dismemberments and fatal eye-pokes doesn't. But that's just me. 

Maybe if comics were still 50 cents a pop I'd buy them up by the armful and take my chances.   But as it stands, I have be a bit more responsible with my money.  That means flipping through each book before buying it, as insurance that even if the story stinks, I'll at least like the art.  When I see something that offends or sickens me, or just plain looks ugly, I put the book back.

Which is to say, maybe Johns wrote a true masterpiece in Infinite Crisis.  Maybe it's some of the most classic prose since the Bard himself put down his quill.  But since my glances at the artwork showed what looked like a TIME magazine color supplement on the atrocities in Darfur, I'll never know.

[DBN]

My main problem with the "Johns is too violent" critique is that it's arbitrarily singling out Johns for a characteristic of a lot of DC comics since 2002. Violence is a big element in superhero comics, yes, but why is Johns singled out and not other writers?

Busiek, for instance. Take his JLA run for example: Ultraman used his heat-vision to flash-fry dozens of people, with their smoking corpses shown on panel. And then, during the battle with the Void Hound, Captain Marvel was literally flipped inside-out by a reverse-bomb. It was a powerful moment that drove home the idea that the JLA just might lose this one, but it was still icky to see the Big Red Cheese popped like a grape.

And that's just Busiek here. I'm not even going to go into Gail Simone's violent BIRDS OF PREY. That book aside, her portrayal of supercrime in VILLAINS UNITED, including shots to the head and gangland crime that would make Tony Soprano wince. And I already brought up Morrison's Luthor-gunning-down-the-Parasite-in-a-prison-riot.

A while back, when we were talking about INFINITE CRISIS, I think it was Nightwing that complained about the series's $3.99 per issue price tag. And while the argument that comics cost too much may be a very valid one, that can't be held against Johns or the quality of the series INFINITE CRISIS.

A bit off-topic, but it just goes to show you why DC needs a rating system similar to Marvel or why the Comic Code needs to be strictly enforced. Examples in recent months:

A. Osiris (Black Adam's brother-in-law) gets eaten alive in 52 by a Crocodile Man. Two pages were dedicated to this scene.
B. Men, women, and children of the Heywood family are massacred on panel in JSA by Nazis. Seven pages.
C. The Red Tornado get his human arm ripped off and eaten by Solomon Grundy in the latest JLA issue.
D. Osiris inadvertintly flies through the Persueder splitting him in half in 52. On panel and the Persueder's guts are shown all over Osiris.
E. Ice Maiden skinned alive in JSA Classified.
F. Captain Comet skinned. 52.

All take place in DC's mainstream line. No mature imprint. I would usually expect this level of violence to be contained to DC's Vertigo line or Marvel's Maxx.