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Author Topic: Holy cow, am I ever tired of Grant Morrison  (Read 29740 times)
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Superman Forever
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 05:18:38 AM »

I think Morrisonīs Superman is the closest to the Silver Age in spirit as we can get, and everthing by Johns and Meltzer is Iron Age crap by definition. It dodnīt matter how much they "love" old characters if still write them like anything but true heroes and the stories show such disrespect where the supposed " love" should be. There really are writers who use Silver and Bronze Age concepts and worldviews but Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer are the opposite of this.
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kirby911
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2007, 08:55:50 PM »

funny how you see and heard this stuff
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jamespup
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 01:56:04 AM »

I was just reading a Jimmy Olsen 80 pager from 1968, and while I certainly considered all the stories reprinted as "Silver-age" I noticed a house ad where Wonder Woman was changing her look...so IMO the silver age was on the verge of ending then
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 07:31:55 AM »

Quote from: Superman Forever
I think Morrisonīs Superman is the closest to the Silver Age in spirit as we can get, and everthing by Johns and Meltzer is Iron Age crap by definition. It dodnīt matter how much they "love" old characters if still write them like anything but true heroes and the stories show such disrespect where the supposed " love" should be.

This statement needs to be re-evaluated.

One thing I find gut-busting hilarious about modern politics is how politicians, liberal and conservative alike, spend money to create this image of themselves as "ordinary Joes," or "straight talkers," or "guys you can have a beer with" despite that most grew up wealthy and priveleged.

Grant Morrison being "Mr. Silver Age" is the image, not reality. Really, it is Geoff Johns that is the true Silver Age guy, and Morrison the true Iron Ager.

Let's compare:

Morrison used Kyle Rayner as a major member of his JLA, and in a WIZARD promotional piece, justified his choice saying something to the effect of "why use an older character when it is possible to tell different stories with the new guy?"

ACTUAL QUOTE FROM A MORRISON STORY IN JLA #22:

SANDMAN: This man, Jordan, the one who wore the magic ring before you...whydoes he overshadow all your thoughts and actions?
KYLE: What? What does this have to do with anything? I was just thinking about...what is this about Hal?
SANDMAN: You will surpass him .You already know what he could never learn.
KYLE: I already met him. The guy was a star. What could I know that he didn't?
SANDMAN: Fear. You will surpass him.

(I threw up a little bit on my mouth on reading that. To repeat: that was GRANT MORRISON writing this, in JLA #22.)

Then again, let's look at Johns. He not only brought Hal Jordan back to life, but did so in a way that absolved him of responsibility for Parallax....and not only, he brought back the entire Green Lantern Corps and the Guardians.

Morrison created an all new character to "replace" Hawkman, Azrael.

Johns brought back the original Hawkman, and did so in such a way it ensured all the Hawkmen that once existed DID exist.

I could go on and on like this. It's like Goofus and Gallant: DC Edition.

Quote from: Superman Forever
There really are writers who use Silver and Bronze Age concepts and worldviews but Geoff Johns and Brad Meltzer are the opposite of this.

When I said that Meltzer and Johns had made a Young Superman a Legionnaire for the first time in decades, brought back the original Silver/Bronze age Legionnaires in their Cockrum costumes no less...did you even listen?

I'd love to hear, though, exactly how a Legion with a Superboy, use of the lightning rods from the resurrection of Lightning Lad, and referencing the pivotal story of Star Boy's existence somehow makes Johns and Meltzer "Iron Age guys."

You can't, and I honestly don't expect a response to all this besides the blanket statements that don't refute any of my specific points that I've gotten thus far. Because the endorsement of Morrison as a Silver Ager is an emotional, not logical preference, based on his (self-created) image, instead of analyzing his writing or his creative decisions.

Quote from: JamesPup
I was just reading a Jimmy Olsen 80 pager from 1968, and while I certainly considered all the stories reprinted as "Silver-age" I noticed a house ad where Wonder Woman was changing her look...so IMO the silver age was on the verge of ending then

The late 1960s at DC is a very interesting transitional time, and I'm surprised few works on comics history write about it. This was the era of Mike Sekowsky's bike story, "Jason's Quest" or the Denny O'Neil JLA.
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Superman Forever
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 01:29:04 PM »

Morrison realy used Kyle Rayner in his JLA, what I think was due to editorial control, but the point is that his Kyle Rayner was not the same of Marz Green Lantern book. All of the characters in JLA were treated with a noble aproach that is closest to the Silver Age spirit than anything being publisehd at the time, except of course Mark WaidīFlash that was Morrison inspiration. Also the book eliminated the soap opera influence of Marvel comics and even killed Marvel characters in the first story arc. That JLA books were really close to the Silver Age spirit, and part of this is because of the Big Seven of DCU returning and Superman and Batman as the greatst heroes instead of stupid like they were  at the time, but the most important was the tone of the stories. The JLA Classified books by Warren Ellis or Howard Chaykin can use the same characters and not read like a Silver Age JLA. Thaīs because Johns and Meltzer using the pra-Crisis LSH donīt make them the real deal. On the other hand, Morrison using the 854 century Superman in DC One Million, was very close to Elliot S! Maggin in spirit, concept and execution.
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carmelo
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 04:04:26 PM »

I was just reading a Jimmy Olsen 80 pager from 1968, and while I certainly considered all the stories reprinted as "Silver-age" I noticed a house ad where Wonder Woman was changing her look...so IMO the silver age was on the verge of ending then
The change of Wonder Woman is the beginning of "Bronze Age" (1969-1985).
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DBN
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2007, 05:38:20 PM »

Quote
Morrison used Kyle Rayner as a major member of his JLA, and in a WIZARD promotional piece, justified his choice saying something to the effect of "why use an older character when it is possible to tell different stories with the new guy?"

ACTUAL QUOTE FROM A MORRISON STORY IN JLA #22:

SANDMAN: This man, Jordan, the one who wore the magic ring before you...whydoes he overshadow all your thoughts and actions?
KYLE: What? What does this have to do with anything? I was just thinking about...what is this about Hal?
SANDMAN: You will surpass him .You already know what he could never learn.
KYLE: I already met him. The guy was a star. What could I know that he didn't?
SANDMAN: Fear. You will surpass him.

How exactly could Morrison have used Hal when you had the character quite dead at the time and the editorial mandate that Kyle was Green Lantern?

...and in a story sense, Kyle has surpassed Hal.


Quote
Then again, let's look at Johns. He not only brought Hal Jordan back to life, but did so in a way that absolved him of responsibility for Parallax....and not only, he brought back the entire Green Lantern Corps and the Guardians.

Umm...Johns didn't bring the Guardians back, Judd Winick did in the Power of Ion which also had Kyle recharge the Power Battery leading the way for the Corps return.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 08:06:08 PM »

Quote from: Superman Forever
the point is that his Kyle Rayner was not the same of Marz Green Lantern book.

I don't see that. Morrison wrote Kyle precisely as Marz did: a rookie, the "new guy," underconfident around experienced heroes, etc. An ordinary person awed by his association with the ring, a "hip" 20-something artist type.

Quote from: Superman Forever
Also the book eliminated the soap opera influence of Marvel comics and even killed Marvel characters in the first story arc. 

I don't think that's a productive way to see comics history - as an everlasting struggle between Marvel and DC ideas? Adding characterization to superheroes is a good idea no matter who thought of it first. Sometimes characterization-heavy stories work for DC (e.g. ALL-STAR SQUADRON, NEW TEEN TITANS, Steve Gerber's METAL MEN run, Drake's DOOM PATROL) and sometimes it doesn't (CREEPER).

Actually, I like parts of Morrison's JLA more than say, his X-MEN. His greatest weakness (his inability to do characterization) is minimized...because he isn't really required to do characterization stories. This only becomes distracting for instance, in the Tomorrow Woman issue...where it's not clear WHY she decided to kill herself, so the story falls apart.

Quote from: Superman Forever
Thaīs because Johns and Meltzer using the pra-Crisis LSH donīt make them the real deal.

I'm getting hoarse repeating this, but they reference stories in the Silver Age directly - Star Boy's expulsion from the Legion, the use of the lightning rods, Young Superman asa member, etc.

This shows them directly to be the Silver Age LSH.

And don't say anything about "tone." Yes, comics written today do feel different than comics written in the past, but every ten years the tone of comics shifts, so what does that prove? And like MatterEaterLad said, tone is subjective.  If it was a criminal case, tone would be "circumstantial evidence." But these details? They're concrete. If they were evidence, they'd "put you at the scene."

Quote from: DBN
How exactly could Morrison have used Hal when you had the character quite dead at the time and the editorial mandate that Kyle was Green Lantern?

Yes, it is true Grant and Johns are writing in totally different editorial periods and perhaps this should be taken into account. It's hard to imagine an editor circa 1998 greenlighting a return of Hal Jordan. This is why Johns was able to bring back so many ideas from DC's past: he had a sympathetic ear in Silver/Bronze ager Dan Didio.

My point here, though is that whether it's because of a friendly editorial, or a change in comics readership or whatever it is...list side by side what Johns and Morrison have done to restore to the DCU elements from the company's history, and the list is weighted far more in Johns's corner...which either way, makes calling Morrison the "Silver Age guy" a little weird. Which is what I was responding to.

Quote from: DBN
...and in a story sense, Kyle has surpassed Hal.

Even though I am obviously not a Kyle Rayner fan...I do admire the fact that REBIRTH wasn't about how Hal is the super-greatest guy in the universe, and Kyle's special role as a Lantern is recognized...which is very rare professionalism. Geoff Johns is the only guy that has ever been able to make me LIKE Kyle Rayner.

Quote from: DBN
Umm...Johns didn't bring the Guardians back, Judd Winick did in the Power of Ion which also had Kyle recharge the Power Battery leading the way for the Corps return.

True - I was referring more to the fact that Johns set up exactly how the Corps was going to "look" with the rings as much more computerlike and sentient, more like Star Trek tricorders, no weakness to yellow, tens of thousands of GLs, cameos by Mogo and the plant-head guy, etc.

This brings up an interesting point: I argue that of the two, Johns is the more truly Silver Age writer. But neither are Silver Age, because both of them, for good or ill, have unique "voices." Johns brought back Hal and the Corps, but he put his own spin on them as well...which keeps it from merely being Silver Age nostalgia or regurgitation as someone like Jeph Loeb often does.
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
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