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Author Topic: Captain America: Murdered  (Read 27592 times)
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VanZee
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 09:49:02 PM »

Captain America is one of a very short list of ordinary humans who put on the superhero tights and leapt out to stop injustice.  Used to be more of them, particularly in the Golden Age.  Swap "Cap killed by sniper" with "Batman killed by sniper" and see how that feels in the mouth.  It feels wrong.  It's about one notch up from "Robin slips in shower, paralyzed."

Sadly, many of these writers do not understand the very characters within their control.  Cap is a much more interesting character with which to deconstruct what's right with the American myth than to be matryred for what's wrong with it.  To what extent is the ability to "awe and inspire" the most enduring trait of the superhero?  Without that, the genre is all just violence and dues ex machina.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 09:50:42 PM by VanZee » Logged
Sword of Superman
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 09:57:00 PM »

Anyone here actually read the story?
Brubaker run on Captain America is really fantastic,my doubts are about the real motivation for this fictional murder,personally i have not yet read the story because with the italian adaptation we are a little"behind"(around issue#17)but since you arise this question i have notice too that sometimes i see post about a story that the author of the post itself have not read..   
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Michel Weisnor
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 11:44:00 PM »

Anyone here actually read the story?

As a matter of fact, I just finished reading Captain America #25. Not a bad comic, there is lots of intrigue with a surprise ending. Overall, outside of all publicity and marketing gimmicks aside, #25 appears to fit into the overall Brubaker/Epting Cap run.


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Super Monkey
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2007, 12:19:01 AM »

Didn't Bucky die too a while back?

The Bucky running around now is a different person or a zombie?

It has been a long time since I read a Marvel comic.


Marvel has always revamped their characters every few years, so it is not as shocking as the media is trying to make it seem. Marvel has never been about tradition, their characters are forever changing. So this is all rather normal.

Like others have said, Cap has died before, so I am sure he will return and die again and return and die again...


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Great Rao
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2007, 02:54:01 AM »

Not a bad comic, there is lots of intrigue with a surprise ending

Yeah, I read the solicitation:  "Cap faces a life-changing decisionCheesy

I'm impressed that Cap's death was still a surprise on the day the comic came out.

Didn't Bucky die too a while back?

The Bucky running around now is a different person or a zombie?

Apparently Bucky Barnes died in World War II.  He was dead until 2005, when Ed Brubaker brought him back in a Captain America storyline.  Not a dream, not a hoax, the Bucky running around now is the real deal.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 03:02:42 AM by Great Rao » Logged

"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2007, 04:19:38 AM »

Then who the heck is Nomad? I thought he was Marvel's rip off of Nightwing, aka a grown up sidekick.

Also, whatever happen to U.S. Agent, the one in the black costume, is he still around or is he dead too?


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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 04:24:27 AM »

Then who the heck is Nomad?

That was Jack Monroe, a different Bucky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky

And be sure to check out "the Bucky Clause" near the end of the article.
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
JulianPerez
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2007, 09:16:30 AM »

Quote from: Great Rao
It sounds to me like this works.  Captain America has always been about the United States: How we see ourselves, our strengths and weaknesses as a country.  The history of Captain America is the history of the United States.  And right now, this is where we're at.  Polarized while in the midst of dramatic change.  Many people are concerned that the government may be moving in fascist directions and that it's using using double-speak terms like "patriot act" to try to justify and disguise it.  Then there are people who refuse to understand that POV and support everything done in the name of the United States, whatever those acts may be.

Rogers' refusal to comply with registration is a patriotic move - and given the passage of the U.S. "REAL ID Act", is completely relevent to current events.  For those who don't know, the "REAL ID Act" takes effect May 2008 and requires that all U.S. Citizens must have and show a federal ID card in order to open a bank account, get a job, or travel.  Some state legislatures, such as Maine, have refused to comply.

The assasination of Steve is also a reflection of the way our world currently is and accurately shows the state of this country - of its traditional values and truths.  Where anger, fear, and violence are waging a war against truth, justice, and tolerance.  I don't blame Marvel for this - they're only the messenger.  I blame the state of the world.

Hey, remember a while back when I argued that the recent creative decisions Marvel has been taking, are due to other writers following Kurt Busiek's lead on ASTRO CITY?

I told you so.

Look what's going on here and compare this to the Silver Agent's martyrdom. Silver Agent, a Captain America-like incorruptible white male leader-type, was executed by a suspicious population falsely during a turbulent, uncertain period, becoming a symbol of shame and mourning. Meanwhile, in the REAL Marvel Universe, you've got the REAL Cap becoming a martyr.

Quote from: Great Rao
As far as Cap's return, it's already alluded to in the CNN article where Joe Quesada says, "What happens with the costume?"  It sounds to me like they've already opened the door for someone else to continue on as Captain America in memory of Steve.  I haven't followed the Marvel Universe for a couple of decades, but Bucky seems like the obvious choice.

I really hope they don't go the "legacy character" route with Captain America, because while the Legacy route can work for some characters (Flash, for instance) it fails with others (Captain America comes to mind, as does Thor, whose most important attribute is that he's the real deal).

Here's why: one of the things I think is most interesting about Captain America is that it ISN'T about the costume, it's about the person inside of it. As much love as I have for Hal Jordan, you could write a comic called GREEN LANTERN and have it star one of the other guys (Stewart, Guy, or one of the aliens, as Englehart did in the 1980s) and people would be okay with that. The Flash has been a so-called "legacy" character for some time as well: if someone's as interesting as their predecessor, I can accept them as the Flash (as I ultimately did with Wally West).

But Captain America isn't about a costume...arguably, Cap's most interesting stories were the ones where Cap, as Nomad, gave the costume up. Likewise, every time someone else has shown up to wear the costume (the psychotic, anticommunist Captain America from the 1950s, the meathead that later became US Agent, Rick Jones, etc.) they are inevitably shown to be unworthy or unsuitable.

Quote from: Great Rao
Apparently Bucky Barnes died in World War II.  He was dead until 2005, when Ed Brubaker brought him back in a Captain America storyline.  Not a dream, not a hoax, the Bucky running around now is the real deal.

Incidentally, Ed Brubaker's CAPTAIN AMERICA, is along with Dan Slott's SHE-HULK, the only Marvel Comic I've been regularly picking up (and She-Hulk is really getting good now they've more-or-less ditched the annoying "law with jetpacks" concept of the first year and replaced it with stories using Marvel's cosmic background: the High Evolutionary, the Eternals, the Watchers starting to interfere in prelude to the Reckoning War, etc.). CAPTAIN AMERICA and SHE-HULK are currently among the few comics published that feel like they're still set in the Marvel Universe.

It's funny: when a friend told me that Bucky was coming back, I was naturally nauseated. "Well, at least Uncle Ben's still dead, right?"

But when I read the Brubaker story, I was impressed. My reaction was the same as the people that were horrified by Spock coming to life, who recanted on seeing SEARCH FOR SPOCK:  "I didn't know you were going to do it THAT way."

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Then who the heck is Nomad? I thought he was Marvel's rip off of Nightwing, aka a grown up sidekick.

Nope. "Nomad, the Man Without a Country" was the identity that Captain America assumed in the Englehart CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON run. Steve had lost faith in America and ditched the star-spangled duds. Many writers - Kurt Busiek included - have pointed to these stories as being essential and central to the character.

Besides Bucky, Steve Rogers had Rick Jones as a sidekick as well.

Interestingly, the other Captain Americas had sidekicks too, and their final fate is sketchy: Cap had a SECOND "lost" sidekick, Golden Girl, in the 1940s. Roy Thomas retconned that all the Golden Age Cap stories from 1945-1949, when Cap was supposed to have been buried in an iceberg, actually happened to another flag-waiving hero, the Spirit of '76, who assumed Cap's identity.

Golden Girl, along with the original Citizen V and the Golden Age version of Vision, is one of those characters that just slipped through the cracks post-Golden Age.

You might be referring to the second Bucky, Jack Monroe, who was the sidekick of the slightly psychotic, anticommunist 1950s Captain America, who later on assumed the name of Nomad when he discovered his Captain dead and the ORIGINAL Captain America very much alive!

(There was another Captain America in the 1950s, which explains Cap's brief revival in that era as a "Commie-Smasher" for three issues in 1953. Obviously this was retconned to being a different guy.)

Quote from: SuperMonkey
Also, whatever happen to U.S. Agent, the one in the black costume, is he still around or is he dead too?

Ahhhh, John Walker. Actually, that's a good question: the last I saw of him was when he played the heavy in Kurt Busiek's great underrated crossover, MAXIMUM SECURITY a couple years ago. I'd argue that USAgent with his hardassed, love-it-or-leave it nationalism, actually would make a much better villain than hero.
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