Captain America: Murdered

[nightwing]

I don't think it would work to put someone else in the costume and call him "Captain America."

If there is a "problem" with the character at all in the modern world, it is in fact the costume, not the guy in it.  Steve Rogers has been fairly consistently portrayed throughout his history as a decent man with a good grasp of what America should be about, despite the shifting winds of popular sentiment or which party happens to hold power at any given time.  But it's those darn star-spangled longjohns that have at times made him a difficult character to promote, to write or to read about.  There's an implied jingoism in that outfit, or at the very least an implied *pride* in something, that can be difficult to reconcile in eras where America's beliefs are shaken.  In order to understand Steve, you first have to read the books, and to read the books you first have to get past those stars and stripes being shoved at you. 

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.

Of course this has already been done, ad nauseum, but then Marvel is the House of Recycled Ideas.

VanZee writes:

Captain America is one of a very short list of ordinary humans who put on the superhero tights and leapt out to stop injustice.  Used to be more of them, particularly in the Golden Age.  Swap "Cap killed by sniper" with "Batman killed by sniper" and see how that feels in the mouth.  It feels wrong.  It's about one notch up from "Robin slips in shower, paralyzed."

Yes, or maybe "Batman paralyzed by third-rate nobody character brought in from left field a few months before." 

Or "Superman killed by mindless Image-reject monster invented for that sole purpose."

The fact that Cap's "death" is so pointless, so unfitting and committed by a relative nobody is the biggest guarantee it won't be permanent.

Well, that and the movie deal.

[Michel Weisnor]

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.

You mean like this guy?

http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6562

[Mighty Man]

You think about it.
If Steve Rogers were a real person. He would have the moral values of my Grandfather (and of course not be as old).
He would be patriotic brassy, sorta racist, old school and stuck in his ways.
Maybe this is their attempt to put a new "modern" guy in the Captain America suit with modern values and ideas.
Not sure how they are going to get away with it but they will probably at least try for a year until they will most likely bring Steve Rogers back after it flops. Marvel really need to do something because the girl across the street selling lemonade probably profits more then them on a monthly basis.   

[Kuuga]

You think about it.
If Steve Rogers were a real person. He would have the moral values of my Grandfather (and of course not be as old).
He would be patriotic brassy, sorta racist, old school and stuck in his ways.
Maybe this is their attempt to put a new "modern" guy in the Captain America suit with modern values and ideas.
Not sure how they are going to get away with it but they will probably at least try for a year until they will most likely bring Steve Rogers back after it flops. Marvel really need to do something because the girl across the street selling lemonade probably profits more then them on a monthly basis.   

It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

[nightwing]

Michel Weisnor writes:

You mean like this guy?

Haha!  More or less.  No seriously, how could anyone pick Frank Castle to be Captain America?  I'm assuming whoever does the choosing would be a government rep and they wouldn't pick a fugitive murderer for the job.  An assasin, maybe, but not such a loose cannon.

But yes, maybe someone LIKE Castle, to a degree.  I think it's possible Marvel could pick a guy who eventually turns out to be too bloodthirsty and/or unstable for the job, just to prove to readers how special Steve is...the same schtick they did with Bruce Wayne and Jean-Paul Valley in "Knightfall." 

But again, we've seen that Cap story before, more than once.  Frankly it's hard to imagine how Marvel could possibly put a new spin on the hoary "replacement Cap" cliche.  There have already been more Caps than Ultrons, haven't there?

Kuuga writes:

It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Steve is by birth and by virtue of his WWII career a member of "The Greatest Generation."  He was also "reborn" in the 60s and as Julian says has a fairly liberal POV.  But one seeming constant in every generation is the onset of a certain inflexibility in later years, a resistance to newness and change.  The Big Band generation are convinced things were better in "their day," as are the beatniks and the Hippies, for that matter. There's no doubt people in their late 20s who think any music after Nirvana is trash.  And heck, you already know what a curmudgeon *I* am, and I'm just 41.

So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?

[VanZee]

the replacements...

[Kuuga]

Michel Weisnor writes:

You mean like this guy?

Haha!  More or less.  No seriously, how could anyone pick Frank Castle to be Captain America?  I'm assuming whoever does the choosing would be a government rep and they wouldn't pick a fugitive murderer for the job.  An assasin, maybe, but not such a loose cannon.

But yes, maybe someone LIKE Castle, to a degree.  I think it's possible Marvel could pick a guy who eventually turns out to be too bloodthirsty and/or unstable for the job, just to prove to readers how special Steve is...the same schtick they did with Bruce Wayne and Jean-Paul Valley in "Knightfall." 

But again, we've seen that Cap story before, more than once.  Frankly it's hard to imagine how Marvel could possibly put a new spin on the hoary "replacement Cap" cliche.  There have already been more Caps than Ultrons, haven't there?

Kuuga writes:

It is ridiculously inaccurate to assume that all people from your Grandfathers era are racist. Nor would Steve Rogers himself be racist.

Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Steve is by birth and by virtue of his WWII career a member of "The Greatest Generation."  He was also "reborn" in the 60s and as Julian says has a fairly liberal POV.  But one seeming constant in every generation is the onset of a certain inflexibility in later years, a resistance to newness and change.  The Big Band generation are convinced things were better in "their day," as are the beatniks and the Hippies, for that matter. There's no doubt people in their late 20s who think any music after Nirvana is trash.  And heck, you already know what a curmudgeon *I* am, and I'm just 41.

So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?

I basically chalk that up to after having adapted to modern life when he was found by the Avengers he basically learned the virtue of it and having gone through such an experience keeps an open mind about things. When you've spent time as a man out of time after awhile adapting as you go probably doesn't seem so bad. Besides, he's Captain America, He has more important things to worry about than ipods and the winds of trends. I would think he wouldn't sit around being bitter about the good old days because he's still having just as much adventure as he did back then. ..and he hasn't aged physically either.

I would think that might make his perspective somewhat more unique than that of the average person from that time. I think this also starts leaning towards the whole "realism" thing which is not superheros first best destiny anyway. These characters are supposed to be fun for crissakes and Cap represents the dream of America not the latest CNN news headline. Of course his death is a great cheap way to MAKE him a CNN headline so of course Joey Q is all about it. Why put the effort into telling fun action adventure superhero stories that repsect the character when you can milk the controversy cow for that shortterm sales spike and get on tv? 

[TELLE]

Some thoughts:

-it is only the great respect and sense of fraternity that I have for the members of this board that has led me to read or write anything about this Captain America frenzy

-Interesting how the character has had a more storied career than Superman in many ways --his low sales post Kirby an excuse for some inventively ambitious but ultimately unsatisfying work by Englehart and Steranko that, if it didn't usually work, at least questioned the idea of a patriotic superhero (as Nightwing notes, the costume is a huge stumbling block to the casual reader --not that most superhero costumes aren't!).  Did Englehart pen the "Cap as Acrobat" era?

-As usual, though, Kirby (and Joe Simon) questioned the concept  first with the parody, Fightin' American.

-Maybe Marvel will have a bunch of people take up the mantle: an electric blue Cap, a clone Cap, a black Cap, etc.

-ironically, Ed Brubaker is a very good writer, although I haven't read  his Cap

-I agree that, outside of Kirby, Cap has been best as an Avenger and, in the the last 20 years, I have enjoyed aspects of Busiek's (Avengers Forever, Perez run) and Bendis' work (I have read 1/2 of a new Avengers and part of my nephew's copy of the Disassembled trade)

-more power to Marvel for being able to pull off a stunt like this on a gullible American public (I suspect it will backfire on them, however, artificially inflating sales, and disillusioning a whole new generation of young fans, etc etc)