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Author Topic: Captain America: Murdered  (Read 26741 times)
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nightwing
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2007, 06:53:00 PM »

Quote
-more power to Marvel for being able to pull off a stunt like this on a gullible American public (I suspect it will backfire on them, however, artificially inflating sales, and disillusioning a whole new generation of young fans, etc etc)

Or worse, convincing the public that the book is no longer in print.

I've said it before, but to this day I encounter people are surprised to find that Superman comics are still being published.  "I thought he was dead!?" they say.

It'll go the same way with Cap; lazy jounalists will always bite at the "death of an icon" story, but the "triumphant return" will be ignored.  Maybe because the latter is so much more easily recognized for what it is; an attempt at hijacking headlines with a product placement.  After all, even what passes for journalists these days would draw the line at reporting, "Today McDonald's announced a new burger guaranteed to be the tastiest yet!"  Well, so far anyway.

In fact, I think this accounts for the disconnect with those people I meet.  There are still people out there who believe "the news" is something more than just regurgitated hype placed in an anchorman's mouth by a corporation, protest group or PAC with an agenda to push.  They hear stuff coming out of those talking heads and assume there is some gravitas to it, some legitimacy.  Hey if it's on the news it must be serious and true, right? DC and Marvel know they're just selling a product via a (desperate) gimmick, the newsman knows he's aiding and abetting a scam but what the heck it helps him fill airtime.  The listener, though, may very well take the whole thing seriously and literally, taking the "death of Superman" as an announcement that the books will cease publication.

This whole thing is analogous to those Christmas Eve newscasts where the reporters track the progress of Santa Clause on his journey from the North Pole.  It's a cutesy, smarmy little game and frankly any reporter who plays along deserves no respect as a journalist.  These chuckleheads have checked their integrity at the door to aid and abet DC and Marvel in selling their funny books.  The line between journalism and entertainment is no longer just blurry, it's been erased.
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2007, 12:25:02 AM »

No, I do not believe Steve Rogers is gone forever.  I think he will be gone for about a year, and return just when Marvel is ready to trash can the "registration act" and Stark's Super-Hero Utopia.
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2007, 11:36:16 AM »

There are still people out there who believe "the news" is something more than just regurgitated hype placed in an anchorman's mouth by a corporation, protest group or PAC with an agenda to push.  They hear stuff coming out of those talking heads and assume there is some gravitas to it, some legitimacy.  Hey if it's on the news it must be serious and true, right?

Twas ever thus.  Certainly I sometimes feel that is becoming harder to tell what real "news" is.  Are major league sporting events or the love lives of movie stars news?  Are stock market reports?  But then I remember that newspapers and even television journalism have always been a highly biased, center-right source of politicized information, gossip and infotainment.  Newspapers have been doing it for hundreds of years.  Maybe I.F. Stone was the last really "pure" US journalist.



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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2007, 08:13:59 PM »

There was another Bucky introduced in the Gruenwald years, an adult black man that was going to be John Walker's (later USAgent's) sidekick when the government placed him in the chainmail tights and asked the real Cap to discontinue his activities, in another one of those attempts to ape Englehart's achievements.

The thing is, he changed his name to "Battlestar" soon after when a letter came in that said that "Buck" is a racist term for a black man. Brother, you could TASTE the panic in Gruenwald's letters pages. And anyway, it's a little embarassing to have a grown man called by the name of a dead white kid.

Quote from: nightwing
I don't think it would work to put someone else in the costume and call him "Captain America."

If there is a "problem" with the character at all in the modern world, it is in fact the costume, not the guy in it.  Steve Rogers has been fairly consistently portrayed throughout his history as a decent man with a good grasp of what America should be about, despite the shifting winds of popular sentiment or which party happens to hold power at any given time.  But it's those darn star-spangled longjohns that have at times made him a difficult character to promote, to write or to read about.  There's an implied jingoism in that outfit, or at the very least an implied *pride* in something, that can be difficult to reconcile in eras where America's beliefs are shaken.  In order to understand Steve, you first have to read the books, and to read the books you first have to get past those stars and stripes being shoved at you. 

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.

Agreed. Ironically, Captain America may actually be worse off in times of high national spirits, because then, the very unique personality traits and view on America that Steve Rogers possesses are shoved in the background. I don't entirely dislike the Kirby run (it has its moments, it's just VERY different from the Englehart run that preceded it) but Englehart was defined by the spirit of Watergate, and Kirby by the spirit of the Bicentennial. Captain America's personality disappeared and he became just another superguy, surrounded by all the tacky flag-waiving.

And hearing the Falcon cheesily introduce himself with "I, a trickster, a questioner of the ways" was nauseating.

Quote from: nightwing
Indeed.  And yet this does bring up an interesting point.  People do tend to be a product of their times, for good and ill.  Except Steve Rogers.

Hmmm? Captain America's biggest personality trait is that he is an anachronism. He hates appeasement, and he always drops references to how because of the Nazis he despises the idea of might-makes-right, and is very firm and uncompromising when it comes to appeasement to people that take things by force. Captain America doesn't really have a private life, and is a very dysfunctional and lonely person when not in costume.

If Steve makes a pop culture reference, it's to Greta Garbo or Errol Flynn.

Incidentally, I was just reading a recent biography of Neville Chamberlain, which argued that he's unfairly maligned by history as an appeaser. As usual, history is far more complicated: In any conflict with the Nazis, Britain would have been whipped, and so Chamberlain appeased in order to allow Britain to re-militarize. If he really meant "peace in our time," he wouldn't have been re-arming Britain. Chamberlain's appeasement was less a cowardly, shortsighted act than a miscalculated gamble: he betted that the Nazis would be brought into conflict with Soviet Russia. If there was ever a moment Chamberlain was finished, it was when the Nazis and Russia signed the non-aggression pact.

Quote from: nightwing
So how is it Steve Rogers manages to live through so many eras without developing that same closed-mindedness?  How is it he never gets to the point of "iPods are too much trouble to learn, I'm sticking with my CDs"?  And so on.  Steve's ability to adapt to cultural change is almost a superpower in itself, don't you think?

Well, again, Captain America's biggest trait is he has trouble adjusting. His subplot in the Busiek-era AVENGERS was that he had no idea how to deal with something like the Triune Understanding, which uses mass media and the press.

If there is anything that keeps Cap modern, I would have to say it is his friendship with Hawkeye. People talk about the Steve/Clint friendship like it was one-way, with Hawkeye as Captain America's pupil or something, when it really is two-way mutual respect.

Hawkeye, and later allies and friends like the Falcon and Rick Jones, have contrary personalities. That's probably what it is; my Grandpa once told me that nothing gets you old like hanging out with old people.

Quote from: TELLE
-I agree that, outside of Kirby, Cap has been best as an Avenger and, in the the last 20 years, I have enjoyed aspects of Busiek's (Avengers Forever, Perez run) and Bendis' work (I have read 1/2 of a new Avengers and part of my nephew's copy of the Disassembled trade)

I don't agree with the whole "Cap is best as an Avenger" perspective.

The best Captain America stories I can think of are ones where Captain America is solo or with Rick Jones or the Falcon; the reason is because the Marvel Universe has such an incredible world that really, only Captain America can play around in. Villains like AIM, MODOK, and the Cosmic Cube; Captain America is the only hero in the MU that makes sense battling a super-spy organization like HYDRA, Baron Strucker, and the sexy Madame Hydra.

Steve is a little like Batman in this regard: sure, he can be a part of the group, but he's at his best when fighting his own enemies in his own "world."

Even when Cap shows up in other comics, the moments where he really shines are solo moments: for instance, Captain America and Doctor Doom vs. the Red Skull in the Bill Mantlo issues of SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, or the "secret" flashback vs. HYDRA where he learned the Supreme Hydra was really the Space Phantom during the Englehart AVENGERS.

Speaking of Busiek's AVENGERS run...if I have any critique of it, it is that Captain America's personality dominates the group. At some level, Busiek must have known this, because come AVENGERS FOREVER, he uses the Englehart-era Captain America, who is shaken, and whose personality is less dominating. And even a couple years into Busiek's run, he has Cap leave and Wasp become leader.

I'm not saying ol' Winghead isn't great as a part of the Avengers. When Busiek said his Avengers roster would have Cap, Thor, and Iron Man, you wanted to read it because you KNEW this guy wasn't messing around.

But Cap's best moments as an Avenger have been those where he is written not as a Charlton Heston "man who is more than a man," but as another one of the characters. My favorite part of the early Roy Thomas run on AVENGERS was that, as Goliath was Avengers chairman, Cap was treated as another hero: the emphasis was on his friendship with Hawkeye and subplots like his rivalry with the Red Guardian.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 08:17:57 PM by JulianPerez » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2007, 08:55:11 PM »


-Maybe Marvel will have a bunch of people take up the mantle: an electric blue Cap, a clone Cap, a black Cap, etc.

They already played all those cards!

Black Guy as Cap : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley
Clone Cap: See Red Skull
Electric Blue Cap: http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=54158
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2007, 08:56:35 PM »

Whoever puts on the outfit is going to inherit that same liability, only without the upside.  Because whoever it is almost certainly is NOT going to share Steve Roger's virtually unique understanding of American principles and ideals, his faith in the country's potential despite its slips, or his long history of service to its cause.

If you put a fervent patriot in the outfit, you're back to square one; promoting a jingoistic character in a time of low national confidence.  If you put a rebellious, anti-establishment type in the outfit, then it just makes no sense...why would he wear the symbol of a system he deplores, except maybe to mock it, which would disgrace the character.

I think the only way it would "work" would be to give someone else the name, but not the outfit.  The new outfit should reflect modern sentiment, maybe something black along the lines of USAgent.  The shield is irreplaceable, so it would have to stay on, but the rest should change.


You mean like this guy?

http://www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6562


been there, done that as well: http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=53330&zoom=4
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2007, 05:17:58 AM »

Julian, I agree that the world of Cap as solo character can be great as well --my Avengers nostalgia sometimes clouds my critical faculties.  Certainly the bizarre Cold War and WWII villains (mainly Kirby inventions) that plague Cap are singularly sublime.  He is also a great component of the Marvel U's espionage/Nick Fury/James Bond-style world. 

In terms of art, I'm Kirby all the way --no other comic artist trumps his storytelling skill, design sense, or emotion in any Cap story I've ever seen or read.  Even the few Gene Colan Cap stories I've read seem rushed.

I'm willing to admit that part of this is nostalgia again --my first experience of Cap was through Avengers, Invaders and Kirby's 70s return to the character.  I didn't read Englehart until years after.  First impressions are hard to discount.  Maybe the best of all possible worlds would have been a Kirby story with plot points and dialog from Englehart?  But I'm sure Kirby would have said "huh?" to Englehart's 70s malaise.

Another great narrative involving Cap that I feel really gets at the essence of his character is Earth-X wherein Cap is basically the last hero in a world where everyone has superpowers.
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2007, 09:01:45 AM »

Quote from: TELLE
Maybe the best of all possible worlds would have been a Kirby story with plot points and dialog from Englehart?  But I'm sure Kirby would have said "huh?" to Englehart's 70s malaise.

Ha! That would have been strange, yet interesting, like Frank Sinatra doing a rap album.

Actually, I can see Kirby doing the art for some of the Englehart-era stories. One of the defining moments when I realized Bradford Wright in COMIC BOOK NATION never actually READ any of the comics he was talking about, was when Wright tried to present "Man Without a Country" as a gritty/political spy story, when in reality it was a Kirby-esque tale featuring supervillains with ray guns whose surprise ending with "Tricky" Dick was all the more shocking because it was unexpected.

(Something I'd like to read - hopefully sometime before I die - would be a "definitive" work on comics history.)

Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of Kirby's Cap run, and he gave the Marvel Universe the gift of Armin Zola, the Bio-Fanatic. A lot of the characters Kirby created in the early days were equally intriguing: the Red Skull sidekicks that included Baldini and his scarf, the wrestler guy, and the Murder Chair.

As for what Kirby would say to Englehart...well, that's hard to say. Kirby's political perspective is very weird at times. One of the things that strikes me about the Fourth World comics, NEW GODS in particular, is that it doesn't seem like something an American would make. The idea of two superpowers dueling over a country in between is something you'd imagine coming out of a smaller, non-aligned country.

Quote from: TELLE
Julian, I agree that the world of Cap as solo character can be great as well --my Avengers nostalgia sometimes clouds my critical faculties.  Certainly the bizarre Cold War and WWII villains (mainly Kirby inventions) that plague Cap are singularly sublime.  He is also a great component of the Marvel U's espionage/Nick Fury/James Bond-style world.  

Nostalgia is probably right on the money with this one. Cap makes a pretty impressive Avenger, and he's important to the group. But I'd say too that Captain America works on his own as well.

People slam Steve Rogers's Rogues Gallery and Supporting Cast, and this I just don't understand. He's got villains like the Serpent Society, AIM, HYDRA, and Nazis from the  Red Skull to the Hate-Monger. His supporting cast has snowballed over the years, with every writer bringing in someone new; sure, there are the usual guest-stars like Hawkeye and Iron Man, to people like that SHIELD agent that was the daughter of his 1940s girlfriend, that South American girl Kirby brought in, not to mention Rick Jones, the Falcon, and all the people that Mark Gruenwald sucked into the gravity of Captain America: Left-Winger and Right-Winger, USAgent, and D-Man.

Captain America is interesting because he is a heroic, as opposed to superheroic-level character with laser-vision, yet at the same time, unlike Batman who is very much 1930s pulp (fighting oriental masterminds and snake-filled pits), Captain America fits right in with very "comic book" events, like his encounter with N'Kantu the Living Mummy in the Gruenwald years. Unlike Batman or Daredevil, you can have Captain America fight spies with jet packs and then take on someone like Stilt-Man.
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