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Author Topic: What if Lori Lemaris got the power of Shazam?  (Read 19248 times)
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Permanus
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2007, 09:34:31 PM »

I rather like Jeff Smith's take on this, though I'm not sure how canonical it is: Captain Marvel is shown to be a separate being from Billy, a sort of genie in a lamp, whose existence precedes Billy's. They're even depicted interacting at the Rock of Eternity. Mary, by contrast, just seems to turn into Mary-with-powers, presumably because she wasn't really planned.

I still think Alan Moore came up with the best explanation for all this sort of thing in Miracleman: You get yourself cloned, then the clone is subjected to some sort of genetic manipulation that makes it highly evolved, and then it is shot out into infra-space or sub-space or whatever. Then, you say a word that is actually a post-hypnotic trigger, and your body gets replaced with the superclone, though apparently your consciousness remains. However, since your consciousness goes into a more evolved brain, you think differently (apparently in a more poetic manner). Then you say the magic word again and you're a middle-aged bloke in Thatcherite Britain again.
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davidelliott
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 07:34:06 AM »

If I remember right, wasn't the wizards power shared by each of the marvels? So if more then one was powered up they each only received a share? I don't recal if it was equal shares or not, but I do recall when Capt and Mary brought freddy to the old wizard he told them that they would each have to give part of thier powers to him.

Yeah, until the first year's arc was complete, then Ibis took Shazam's place at the Rock and all 3 Marvels had full power... it wasn't divided
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2007, 12:43:52 PM »

Incidentally, is this the seventh christdamned thread about Captain Marvel in as many weeks? When did this website become SHAZAM! through the Ages, anyway?

There needs to be a moratorium on Captain Marvel threads, stat. I'm sick of hearing about the guy.

Quote from: Permanus
I still think Alan Moore came up with the best explanation for all this sort of thing in Miracleman: You get yourself cloned, then the clone is subjected to some sort of genetic manipulation that makes it highly evolved, and then it is shot out into infra-space or sub-space or whatever. Then, you say a word that is actually a post-hypnotic trigger, and your body gets replaced with the superclone, though apparently your consciousness remains. However, since your consciousness goes into a more evolved brain, you think differently (apparently in a more poetic manner). Then you say the magic word again and you're a middle-aged bloke in Thatcherite Britain again.

In some ways the Marvel imitators are more successful because they think it through so well.

One character I always found interesting was the Captain Marvel-slash-Wonder Woman of the Phillippines (an unlikely region to create superhero comics), Mars Ravelo's Darna. What I found most interesting is yes, there's the usual Captain Marvel business about a girl who becomes an adult heroine, but JUST when we think this chick is just the little girl in a different body...we learn this female heroine had a life and a backstory and indeed different MEMORIES. Darna was a warrior on a planet of alien superbeings.

Quote from: davidelliot
The Lt. Marvels and Hoppy, the Marvel Bunny!

Oh, c'mon. The Lieutenant Marvels were pretty much negligible forces in Captain Marvel history with a handful of appearances. The idea they're a permanent fixture of the Marvel world is a retroactive, inappropriate concept. It's like making a list of Superman supporting cast members and including Ed Hamilton's "Brainiac A."

And if they all became ideal versions of themselves, why is Fat Marvel still fat? Some people look better with a few extra pounds, but still.

Quote from: davidelliot
These examples outweigh the other one Julian referenced.  

If all it was, was one issue from 1940-whenever, I'd agree.

It's not just that one comic, though. There's the overpowering implication that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are two different individuals, which permeated the book. Captain Marvel referred to Billy in Third Person as "he" and "him."

Also, their thoughts, their very "voice," or way of speaking is different in a way that wouldn't make sense if CM was just Billy who briefly upgraded to an adult body.

One of the deliberate reversals done in the 1987 "Earth-1" Captain Marvel was the idea that Captain Marvel was made to explicitly have Billy Batson's mind...and if the Cheese always HAD Billy's mind even back in the day, how would that in any way be a reversal?

Part of continuity is the implied sense of how things work.

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Yes, I could live there, but I am a native of New Zealand living in Australia, and how different are those places from Britain anyway? Not a lot, really, if you boil it down. I do have the ancestry necessary to live and work in the UK indefinitely, but I'm betting I'll always call the antipodes home, good reasons being the air and the space and the sunshine, which I would miss. Yes, I could live in England or Scotland no problem, however, so part of me belongs there. 

Ahh, this whole conversation makes me want to read Pat Wrightson again.

Of all the writers I loved as a kid (circa age 10 - some years before discovering Tolkien and Heinlein at 12 and Moorcock and Edgar Rice Burroughs at 14) the one I loved best was Patricia Wrightson, even more than C.S. Lewis, because he was English whereas the Australia Pat created in NARGUN AND THE STARS was a cool, awesome world where every billabong had a giant mischief-making Potkurok in it and every tree had playful Turongs.

The thing I liked best about Pat Wrightson was she could do something Tolkien could not do as well: create this overwhelming sense of melancholy and antiquity. Her Nargun was a sympathetic, slow, alien monster. There was one particularly moving scene in THE ICE IS COMING where a Dreamtime Ninya creature died, and it was an occasion of great mourning, because no new Ninya had been born since the dawn of the world.

With Pat you felt as if Australia really WAS the world's oldest continent.

Interestingly enough, at a science fiction event I was able to corner the line designer for TSR, and I asked him why there were no Australian "monsters" in AD&D. To his credit, the guy actually knew what I was talking about, and his response was that they avoided doing so not because these creatures aren't well known outside Australia, but because they are spiritually significant to Koori peoples, and it would be possible some might take offense.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 04:36:36 PM by JulianPerez » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2007, 03:35:06 PM »

There ARE a lot of threads about Captain Marvel, aren't there?
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davidelliott
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2007, 04:08:23 PM »

Julian, everything you say makes sense... I kind of forget that there are SO many versions of Cap, so many takes on him that it's hard to pin down one characterization.

There was a reprint story in Shazam! No. 17 about a Theo Hagge planning to marry Cap for her own nefarious purposes... On page 8 of the story, Cap let's "Billy take over" since he's so confused.  Billy then says "Captain Marvel's a big dope!  He's so woozy about getting married he can't think straight! But I know what's been going on and I'm going to put a stop to it!"

Versus the "Billy in Cap's body" version.. versus the Ordway version.

The Lt Marvels and Hoppy, I think are still valid references, though.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2007, 05:06:11 PM »

Well, I didn't mean to single out your comments on the Lieutenant Marvels in particular, but one tendency in general that bothers me is the way a few truly rare, uncommon things are pointed to as typical. Mae West and W.C. Fields only did ONE movie together, MY LITTLE CHICKADEE.

The Lieutenant Marvels had a number of appearances during the Golden Age I can count on one hand (and that would still be true even if I lost a couple fingers due to frostbite, clumsy carpentry, and shark attack); they weren't a normalized part of the world to the extent that say, Supergirl and the Fortress of Solitude are for Superman.

The Lieutenant Marvels' inclusion as supporting cast members is not 100% appropriate. I remember SuperMonkey mentioned to a website owner that had bios of Captain Marve characters that the Lieutenant Marvels were left off. Well, gee, no kidding. Of course they'd be left off. Unless the goal was to squeeze in everybody Captain Marvel ever knew.

For that matter, when people think of the Weisenger Age, they think the Super-Pets...but with the exception of Krypto and Comet, the Super-Pets had only a few appearances, and they were cute comedy stories where their existence made sense. It wasn't like Krypto was showing up regularly to save Superman's bacon. Some Super-Pets only showed up once: Mynah the Super-Bird, for instance.

What's worse is a lot of writers, including Alan Moore, interpret the pets as being typical of Superman's "mood" in the 1960s. Which is a little like pointing to holodeck episodes set in the 1930s as being your "average" NEXT GENERATION episode.
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2007, 06:14:28 PM »

For that matter, when people think of the Weisenger Age, they think the Super-Pets...but with the exception of Krypto and Comet, the Super-Pets had only a few appearances, and they were cute comedy stories where their existence made sense. It wasn't like Krypto was showing up regularly to save Superman's bacon. Some Super-Pets only showed up once: Mynah the Super-Bird, for instance.

What's worse is a lot of writers, including Alan Moore, interpret the pets as being typical of Superman's "mood" in the 1960s. Which is a little like pointing to holodeck episodes set in the 1930s as being your "average" NEXT GENERATION episode.

Mynah was never a super-pet, a one and done character, far less appearances than a Flame Dragon.

Pets are typical of a mood of the 60s, as are an entire decade of light-hearted or strange Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen titles, almost an equal number of comics to the Action, Adventure, and Superman of the same time.

Did Alan Moore overuse Streaky?
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Permanus
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2007, 09:09:50 PM »

Did Alan Moore overuse Streaky?

Nope, he didn't, and neither did anybody else. Dammit if I'm not going to work on my Streaky miniseries idea and pitch it to DC, I'm obviously the only person who cares about Streaky.
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