What if Lori Lemaris got the power of Shazam?

[Aldous]

Actually, this might be an interesting way to have brought Captain Marvel onto Earth-1 in the 1970s or so: have a supporting cast member of an existing superhero become Captain Marvel. Hey, it worked for Rick Jones!

As for the question...my understanding is that the human being is the "bottle" for Captain Marvel, so anyone struck by Marvel's lightning would become the dark-haired, very male Cap we all know...which is weird, but no less weird than a little kid becoming an adult hero.

Also: she'd have to go to the surface before saying the magic word or else the lightning would go everywhere.

I think the only comic I have in which Rick is Captain Marvel is a Spidey team-up with awful Gil Kane/Jim Mooney art (I like the art of those two gentlemen very much, elsewhere, but not on Spider-Man and not together). And, to get to my point, I always liked that about Marvel Comics, the "unification" (is that the right word?) of their world, being one in which the Hulk's gofer can happen to become the secret identity stand-in for Captain Marvel.

Maybe you could clear it up, Julian, but from my memory of the story, Rick doesn't become Captain Marvel so much as as being replaced by him. (Where did Rick go?)

I think the Big Red Cheese is different. Captain Marvel is actually Billy, as Mary Marvel is Mary. Why is Mary still the same age? The lightning has an intelligence and will tweak the final super-heroic result as necessary. Ours is not to reason why.

So the situation for Rick and Billy is quite different (so far as I can tell).

[JulianPerez]

I think the only comic I have in which Rick is Captain Marvel is a Spidey team-up with awful Gil Kane/Jim Mooney art (I like the art of those two gentlemen very much, elsewhere, but not on Spider-Man and not together).

Ahhh, MARVEL TEAM-UP #16, the story with Spider-Man and Captain Marvel vs. the Basilisk, the counter-argument to the idea that dead doesn't mean dead in comics. My old pal Basil Elks (get it?) croaked years ago and hasn't been seen since, and it's doubtful he'll ever be back. I love Len Wein's plots, but I agree with you about the art; I expect better from Kane. Though I believe Mike Esposito inked that one, not Mooney.

I always liked that about Marvel Comics, the "unification" (is that the right word?) of their world, being one in which the Hulk's gofer can happen to become the secret identity stand-in for Captain Marvel.

Agreed. It was interesting to see Roy Thomas bring this kind of interconnectivity to Earth-2 with his ALL-STAR SQUADRON; for a while there Earth-2 was way more interesting than Earth-1!

Maybe you could clear it up, Julian, but from my memory of the story, Rick doesn't become Captain Marvel so much as as being replaced by him. (Where did Rick go?)

Yeah, that's about the size of it. They'd switch their atoms on earth's dimension by banging the Nega-Bands together. When one was on earth, the other was floating aimlessly in the Negative Zone, able to communicate with the other telepathically.

Captain Marvel finally was able to escape from the Negative Zone and be on earth at the same time as Rick, by tagging along when the Fantastic Four left the NZ after a battle with Annihilus. This was done around the start of the Kree-Skrull Wars.

[davidelliott]

A couple more examples:

The Lt. Marvels and Hoppy, the Marvel Bunny!  These examples outweigh the other one Julian referenced.  The magic lightning gives the powers.. the person receiving is transformed into what he or she thinks their ideal is.  A pre-teen Mary would transform into a full figured teenage girl, or young woman. A crippled Freddy would transform into himself at the same age, only super-powered.  Billy would transform into a man (his dead father perchance).

Back to topic, if Lori Lemaris was a recipient of the Power, she would transform into what SHE thought would be the ideal.  That's what I gather from the evidence of what's out there...

[Aldous]

A couple more examples:

The Lt. Marvels and Hoppy, the Marvel Bunny!  These examples outweigh the other one Julian referenced.  The magic lightning gives the powers.. the person receiving is transformed into what he or she thinks their ideal is.  A pre-teen Mary would transform into a full figured teenage girl, or young woman. A crippled Freddy would transform into himself at the same age, only super-powered.  Billy would transform into a man (his dead father perchance).

Back to topic, if Lori Lemaris was a recipient of the Power, she would transform into what SHE thought would be the ideal.  That's what I gather from the evidence of what's out there...

In the comics of the 40s, was Shazam the old wizard dead or still alive when the other two kids got the powers? If alive, he may have retained control over transformations. There's a deliberate ranking there of the three... The man, the young woman, and the boy. There's no reason why Freddy wouldn't become a super-man like Billy, except if the wizard wanted it that way. Captain Marvel was obviously intended to be the grown-up and retain superiority over any further super-kids.

[davidelliott]

A couple more examples:

The Lt. Marvels and Hoppy, the Marvel Bunny!  These examples outweigh the other one Julian referenced.  The magic lightning gives the powers.. the person receiving is transformed into what he or she thinks their ideal is.  A pre-teen Mary would transform into a full figured teenage girl, or young woman. A crippled Freddy would transform into himself at the same age, only super-powered.  Billy would transform into a man (his dead father perchance).

Back to topic, if Lori Lemaris was a recipient of the Power, she would transform into what SHE thought would be the ideal.  That's what I gather from the evidence of what's out there...

In the comics of the 40s, was Shazam the old wizard dead or still alive when the other two kids got the powers? If alive, he may have retained control over transformations. There's a deliberate ranking there of the three... The man, the young woman, and the boy. There's no reason why Freddy wouldn't become a super-man like Billy, except if the wizard wanted it that way. Captain Marvel was obviously intended to be the grown-up and retain superiority over any further super-kids.

Hi Aldous,

Shazam was crushed in the origin story and his "spirit" would be summoned by lighting the brazier by his throne.  I'm kind of referring the evidence of the Lt Marvels & Hoppy from the Fawcett era and Ordway's explanations from TPOS series.  Fawcett/Earth-S Mary Marvel seemed to remain her own age as Mary Batson/Marvel... TPOS Mary Bromfield was probably about 10 and became a young woman as Mary (or Captain) Marvel.

In Ordway's series, this whole subject was addressed after Freddy became Cap Jr.  I think Mary asked why Freddy was still the same age when she and Billy were older as their Marvel selves and Shazam straight out offered the subconscious ideal explanation... which makes sense to me

[Aldous]

The "subconscious ideal"... I presume this is what Christians believe will happen to them (and their comrades) in the beyond; that their new bodies will be perfect and their minds will be improved so as to eliminate all of the usual conflicts. Which begs the questions: why wouldn't God just make them "ideal" to begin with, and why would someone like ex-crippled-Freddy say the magic words again to go back to how he was? Or, put another way, when Shazam the wizard grants this idealisation of body and mind, why is there any way back at all? What's the point?

Actually, I suppose Superman answers that particular question, being the granddaddy of them all. Clark, like little Billy, keeps the big guy in touch with the rest of us. I suppose the Big Red Cheese would lose sympathy for our shortcomings after a while if he didn't spend most of his time as a small helpless boy.

It doesn't answer the afterlife question, though.

[davidelliott]

Hi Aldous,

Well.. I want to keep this thread on topic, but would like to discuss more of the religious aspect further!  Send me a message if you want to do that!

Otherwise, it's funny.. Ordway addressed all this in the Power of Shazam series. Why Freddy couldn't be Jr full time. Also the effects were also addressed in the Marvelman/Miracleman series in the '80's

[Just a fan]

If I remember right, wasn't the wizards power shared by each of the marvels? So if more then one was powered up they each only received a share? I don't recal if it was equal shares or not, but I do recall when Capt and Mary brought freddy to the old wizard he told them that they would each have to give part of thier powers to him.