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Author Topic: Superman plus Wonder Woman?  (Read 6570 times)
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JulianPerez
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« on: August 24, 2007, 08:47:45 PM »

The Busiek issue featuring a Superman/Wonder Woman team-up was interesting because it showed how wonderfully those two characters work together. The playful hints of attraction, the Lois-Wonder Woman friendship (only possible because Superman is married, and thus she trusts him because of his untemptability..."catty" Lois is a thing of the past), their similarities in power level...it was exciting watching Superman and Wonder Woman hurling a punch at the same time.

It was interesting, and I'd love to see something like that again. Perhaps on a more regular basis.

As I've said in the past...I don't think much of the Batman/Superman relationship. There's something conspicuously artificial about it all. It reminds me of the MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS issue where Bill Mantlo created the "Legion of Monsters." It was a story with Man-Thing, Morbius, Ghost Rider, and a couple other guys. It was obvious they had no real reason to get together on a permanent basis, and it didn't survive the issue that birthed it.

Wonder Woman fits in more with Superman's world, yet she is different enough, in terms of power and personality, to stand out: Wonder Woman is a pacifist, proactive, and a humanitarian. She is obviously not a "female Superman." As the most powerful man and the most powerful woman, they have, as Neil Gaiman pointed out, a "bond."

And heck, they don't even need to have "an understanding" (though Wonder Woman's very presence is wrinkle in Superman's relationships). There's something interesting about stories where smart men and smart women become friends.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 08:50:07 PM by JulianPerez » Logged

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SteamTeck
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 01:08:59 AM »

Completely on the same page with you on  Wonder Woman and Superman. As to Batman and Superman I think they work better as members of a larger team together than just the two of them in the comics. There can be lots of interesting dynamics and tensions  with their different philosophies but there worlds and power levels are too crazy different.
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Ruby Spears Superman
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 03:58:56 AM »

 There is an issue of Wonder Woman from the Paradise Lost storyline where Lois follows Diana around for a day. It is one of the best Wonder Woman stories out there. I think it was included in the recent Greatest Wonder Woman Stories Ever Told collection and rightfully so!
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 10:15:34 PM »

Prior to Busiek, Superman/Batman really was the best Superman title out there, so I disagree about the artificiality of Superman and Batman's relationship (except during the late Golden Age, I'll give you that.) Batman is on par with Superman in ways that his contemporaries (Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl) who are equally skilled and equally vulnerable are not.

First, they complement each other. Gotham and Metropolis, after all, are euphemisms for different aspects of New York City. There is also no mistaking the similarities between Batman and Luthor: inventiveness, intelligence, and wealth that provide a credible challenge to the Man of Steel. Luthor and Superboy were friends, so why not Batman and Superman?

The defining difference between Batman and Luthor that determines friendship or foeship is trust. Luthor doesn't trust that meddling alien who stole his hair; Superman trusts Batman enough to stop him if he gets out of control (maybe because he sees qualities of Luthor in him.) He has access to the Fortress, presumably including the Gold Kryptonite that is stored there.

I do like inclusion of Wonder Woman into Superman's world as well, though. I especially like her recent role as Supergirl's mentor, because a) it's better than slamming her into an orphanage, and b) as you pointed out, she and Superman share similar values. In fact, Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman stories can also be great, and I don't mean the dialogue in Infinite Crisis. I just recently reread For the Man Who Has Everything. As for a possible monthly title, I think that a Supergirl/Wonder Woman title would be more interesting, and probably successful too.

P.S.- Since we've recently been discussing Byrne artwork, I need to point out that he drew the ugliest Wonder Woman I've ever seen:



Really. What is that line on her leg for? Why does she have two rows of...tooth? She doesn't look like Diana at all. Did John Byrne trace one of the men from American Gladiators?!?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 10:21:45 PM by Gangbuster » Logged

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jimmy-neutron
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 06:42:00 PM »

Felt many Superman-Batman stories worked well, at first many would probably see Superman as the strong-link of the team, only to find batman's detective skills equally important.

One good story with the Batman and Superman was when they meet a good-Brainiac, who has shrunk several cities into jars containing bad-guys. One of the jars contains some criminals from Krypton and when Superman and Batman go into the jar, they are on more-or-less equal pegging.

[At the end of the story, Batman and Superman suggest that perhaps one day the good-Brainiac would meet up with the bad-Brianiac. Did this ever happen?]

An interesting team-up would be Superman and Disco-Girl.
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Permanus
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2007, 09:18:05 PM »

An interesting team-up would be Superman and Disco-Girl.

If they'd done a Superman/Dazzler crossover circa 1980, it would have been one of those guilty, cheesy pleasures that follows you throughout your life, that you actually like without any sense of irony, but of course you can't let anybody know that. It would have been sold with one of those blue floppy records, for the soundtrack.

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JulianPerez
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 02:53:04 PM »

Quote from: jimmy-neutron
One good story with the Batman and Superman was when they meet a good-Brainiac, who has shrunk several cities into jars containing bad-guys. One of the jars contains some criminals from Krypton and when Superman and Batman go into the jar, they are on more-or-less equal pegging.

[At the end of the story, Batman and Superman suggest that perhaps one day the good-Brainiac would meet up with the bad-Brianiac. Did this ever happen?]

You mean the Brainiac A story? Well, from what I understand, the reason that Brainiac A never showed up again is because he was an Ed Hamilton creation, and this was around the time ('66-'67 I believe) that the Planet-Smasher left the Super-Books. Brainiac A was one of his last stories, and he never got a chance to do a sequel where "good" and "evil" Brainiac meet as the tale's end promised...so the whole thing was quietly forgotten as time went on.

Because the Brainiac A story was never mentioned again, many people think of it as a "Mopee."

I for one can see the strengths and weaknesses of Brainiac A. If Ed wanted to keep him around as a regular part of the Superman world, B-A would have been a fun little wrinkle in the Brainiac story. Then again, it might be an unwarranted insertion and un-needed complication. Not everybody needs an evil twin, female equivalent, or magical imp (in fact, I'd argue nobody does).

In some ways, though, the Brainiac A story is very typical of why the Batman/Superman team-ups seldom work. Here you had to have a really oddball, unusual, and somewhat contrived situation where Superman and Batman were on equal footing. This is sort of like those issues of JLA where there's always some underwater crisis, so Aquaman has something to justify his existence.

They did this all the time: for instance, the invention of Slow Kryptonite to take out Batman, which affected ordinary people (and may be the same as Argo City's Anti-Kryptonite).

Quote from: Gangbuster
Prior to Busiek, Superman/Batman really was the best Superman title out there, so I disagree about the artificiality of Superman and Batman's relationship

What, the Jeph Loeb book? It sold a bajillion issues, but I didn't care for that one.

I will say this: BATMAN/SUPERMAN had some clever solutions to some of the problems of the Batman/Superman relationship. They borrowed a page from Power Man and Iron Fist's playbook, and had a division of labor: Superman takes on the superstrong powerhouse types, and Batman would duke it out with the Kung Fu guys. Another example of this in the series was the Superman Family would make a big, obvious attack on the white house, while the Batman Family would use the attack as cover to sneak in. This, actually, was pretty clever.

The Superman farm-boy talk was really boring. Loeb's blabbermouth text boxes always went on about "Pa" and "the corn." As interesting as Smallville is as a part of his life's story, Superman is ultimately cosmic and cosmopolitan and international instead of provincial, and the farm-boy stuff is ultimately just another part of his backstory.

Anyway, I thought there was a general, overall kind of dumbness about BATMAN/SUPERMAN. A Kryptonite meteor is headed for Earth. Kryptonite, a metal that kills Superman! How is that possibly be spun as being Superman's fault? And mountain nomads in Tibet know Superman is a hero. It's unbelievable he can be made an outlaw so easily.

Also, the big plot point towards the end is someone had to do Ferro Lad-style sacrifice play, and drive the Composite Superman/Batman robot into the planet-killing K-Asteroid. QUESTION: why not just rig that big Voltron-looking thing on a programmed course so you don't need a pilot? Also...the Kryptonite radiation "killed" Captain Atom? Captain Atom...who is MADE of radiation?

Also...why would they use Katana to track Batman? Katana, known to be Batman's friend and ex-team-mate in the Outsiders? And Power Girl, who once claimed to be related to Superman. Surprise! In the end both of them turn out to be working with Batman. WHOA, DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING.

President Lex must have been channelling Homer Simpson after that: "Why do things that happen to stupid people always happen to ME?"

I'm not an expert in Superman's post-Crisis continuity by any means, but isn't it true that Lex Luthor "died" from Kryptonite poisoning and revived himself as a clone? If that's true, wouldn't he know better than to use Kryptonite as a drug on himself?

In the very first issue, Metallo shoots a Kryptonite bullet at the S-Man.

1) Why would Metallo chip away from his heart, his power source that his life is dependent on? Especially when there are other options available. It's made of Kryptonite which has something of a finite supply?

2) You know, I always had a feeling that whole "faster than a speeding bullet" thing was B.S.! Cheesy I officially owe Todd Welling an apology. I thought he was a pretty-boy himbo, at least his Superman could think to dodge a bullet!

Another moment that I thought was goofy was Hawkman "hitting Superman with the planet."

Granted, I will freely admit I wasn't reading Hawkman at the time so maybe there's more there that I don't know...but where the heck did that gadget come from, anyway? It isn't a part of Hawkman's regular inventory. If Katar has something like that, why doesn't he use it all the time?

And do I really need to mention that that's cheating? Giving Hawkman this super-gizmo so he can fight Superman, that's like saying "Me and Wayne Gretzky combined have over 900 career NHL goals."

Even Geoff Johns, DC's best writer at that time, didn't really produce anything interesting when put on BATMAN/SUPERMAN, with the Kamandi story and the return of the Legion of Super-Villains.

Quote from: Gangbuster
First, they complement each other. Gotham and Metropolis, after all, are euphemisms for different aspects of New York City.

True, but they're both very different kinds of New Yorks that are not thematically not very compatible. Gotham was always New York with a sort of old-world, pulpy, European flavor. It felt more like Montreal than NYC at times. Superman's Metropolis was always a picaresque, funny, place. Swan's art was important here: he drew locations in Metropolis like a real place. The Daily Planet felt like a real office, for example. And one of Elliot S! Maggin's biggest contributions to Superman was he gave the work a sense of humor. He's the first guy to have Superman team up with Mel Brooks!

P.S.- Since we've recently been discussing Byrne artwork, I need to point out that he drew the ugliest Wonder Woman I've ever seen:



Really. What is that line on her leg for? Why does she have two rows of...tooth? She doesn't look like Diana at all. Did John Byrne trace one of the men from American Gladiators?!?

Ouch, that's physically painful to look at.

It's sad to see this sort of thing. It's like when Elizabeth Taylor gained all that weight.  You remember that she used to be something else.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 03:10:41 PM by JulianPerez » Logged

"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
JRJ123
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 12:32:35 AM »

I really enjoyed the BATMAN/SUPERMAN story. I agree that it was ridiculous to try and blame a Kryptonite meteor on Superman, but at least Luthor's "paranoia" for want of a better word, along with his hatred of Superman and a desire to turn his people (don't forget he was President of the United States, with pretty much the ability to spin anything in his favour; think propaganda) against Superman were sort of credible.
Another BATMAN/SUPERMAN story I really liked was the Absolute Power one. Granted, it didn't make a lot of sense, but it was a good read and it had some interesting ideas.

I have to say
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