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Author Topic: John Byrnes artwork  (Read 29017 times)
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SteamTeck
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2007, 12:03:13 AM »

For me the right man for a Superman revamp was Perez.His job over Wonder Woman is still amazing even after all this years,put new ideas but still truly respect for the past of the character.

That would have worked better I bet.
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carmine
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2007, 02:40:33 AM »

hmm Perez on Wonder Woman
Byrne of Superman

hey DC how about hiring WRITERS to, you know, write your most important characters instead of giving vanity projects to hot artists.

(though I suppose frank miller was an artists who became a great writer).

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DBN
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2007, 03:10:13 AM »

[
Much of the same with Rucka with his two-year long muted rehash of the Death of Clark Kent which made use of numerous power-draining devices and more mind-control. The little gem about Supes not caring about civilian lives as long as he got his revenge against DD cemented in my mind that this hack shouldn't be allowed anywhere remotely near the Superman titles ever again. But, the hack gets the chance to damage Supes some more thanks to idiot extraordinaire Eddie Berganza.

For Tomorrow may have been boring, but atleast it didn't include any of the above.

No it had Supes as a selfish smaller than life character with no moral compass, no resolve  or fortitude andcausing tons of horrible things to happen by inaction like some bad parody of Hamlet. You can name the downsides  of the byrne run all you want but personally I find them infinitely less offensive than the tiny little man Superman became later. ( Insert 10 page  rant here).

Are we talking about the same story? He didn't cause any horrible things to happen. The Vanishing occurred while he was off in space saving Kyle Rayner. He put an end to a war, fought the OMAC prototype, fought Earth elementals who threatened to destroy humanity, and fought a half-crazed Wonder Woman who sought to prevent him from going into the Phantom Zone to save those who had been trapped. How in the blue heck is that inaction?

Moreover, the entire point of him modifying the Phantom Zone was to save humanity from the fate that befelled Krypton. I'll take that over the weak, marvilized, incompetent, moron that Byrne presented who couldn't find any option other than to execute Zod & co.

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Ruby Spears Superman
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2007, 03:54:45 AM »

 The Zod execution thing didn't bother me as much as the "Superman as Hamlet" mentality that seemed to run all through most of the late eighties and early ninties. "Oh, am I too alien to fit in on Earth?", "Am I worthy of the title of worlds greatest hero?", "Would Cat Grant still want me if she knew I was Superman?", "Will Lois ever appreciate me as Clark?" Even in the Golden Age the "Lois hates Clark but loves Superman" thing never sat well with me. If I have one complaint about that era that would be it. Not interested in him as a love interest, fine, but abject hatred seemed a bit much.

Back in the early post-crisis years he even complained about havening to shave with a chunk of metal from his rocket and heat vision which never made sense to me. Why does the hair on his face grow but the hair on his head doesn't? Someone want to explain that? The pre-crisis Superman was way more obsessed with his alien heritage then his late eighties counterpart (even going so far as to worship the Kryptonian god Rao despite being raised on Earth) and he still didn't complain about being an outsider as much as this guy did!

Don't even get me started on the reduced power thing. The movie Superman may not have been able blow stars out, but at least he could still crush coal into diamond. The post-crisis Superman couldn't do either one! 
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2007, 12:33:12 PM »

Why does the hair on his face grow but the hair on his head doesn't? Someone want to explain that?
I take it you don't suffer from the sting of male-pattern baldness.  Smiley

I think the idea is simply that he can get away longer without a haircut than he can without shaving without looking ratty.  I'm in the same boat.  I don't shave for a week and I'd be described as having a beard.  My 5pm shadow happens at about 3pm. 

I hear that Supergirl and Krypto gives good haircuts, but I get leery event when a stray hairdryer gets near my ears, so the whole "heat vision" thing scares me.  I wonder about the relative invulnerability of Kryptonian skin versus hair.  Does he ever cut himself shaving, then cauterize afterwards?  Yowtch!
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Gangbuster
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2007, 07:17:38 PM »

Even in the Golden Age the "Lois hates Clark but loves Superman" thing never sat well with me. If I have one complaint about that era that would be it. Not interested in him as a love interest, fine, but abject hatred seemed a bit much. 

I wouldn't say that Golden Age Lois really loved Clark OR Superman. She would usually show her affection for Clark by calling him a "yellow coward," but that Lois was mostly a product of a teenage Siegel's views on women- she was manipulative and hated nerds. She seemed interested in Superman for mostly selfish reasons, at least in the beginning.
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SteamTeck
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2007, 05:07:36 AM »

).
Quote

Are we talking about the same story? He didn't cause any horrible things to happen. The Vanishing occurred while he was off in space saving Kyle Rayner. He put an end to a war, fought the OMAC prototype, fought Earth elementals who threatened to destroy humanity, and fought a half-crazed Wonder Woman who sought to prevent him from going into the Phantom Zone to save those who had been trapped. How in the blue heck is that inaction?

Moreover, the entire point of him modifying the Phantom Zone was to save humanity from the fate that befelled Krypton. I'll take that over the weak, marvilized, incompetent, moron that Byrne presented who couldn't find any option other than to execute Zod & co.




You right we obviously didn't read the same story. If that's what you got out of it I literally don't know how to talk to you about it. I'll take killing  the three over a psychotic episode that lasted  what seemed like forever. The weak Marvelized Superman WON battles and has 1000 times more resolution and competence than the idiot in :for tomorrow" I'm going to bow out of this now. We won't get anywhere and any positive feedback for that story makes me far too irrationally angry
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 01:18:48 PM by Super Monkey » Logged
JulianPerez
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2007, 01:48:47 PM »

Quote from: Ruby Spears Superman
The Zod execution thing didn't bother me as much as the "Superman as Hamlet" mentality that seemed to run all through most of the late eighties and early ninties. "Oh, am I too alien to fit in on Earth?", "Am I worthy of the title of worlds greatest hero?", "Would Cat Grant still want me if she knew I was Superman?", "Will Lois ever appreciate me as Clark?"

Well, I don't know if that's necessarily a post-crisis innovation. Superman is a character that has a very rich inner life, and some of my favorite Pre-Crisis Superman stories have been ones where Superman experiences dilemmas and turmoil.

A major, major theme of Superman's characterization is him wondering if he is an alien interloper that does too much for humanity, for instance.

Quote from: Ruby Spears Superman
The pre-crisis Superman was way more obsessed with his alien heritage then his late eighties counterpart (even going so far as to worship the Kryptonian god Rao despite being raised on Earth) and he still didn't complain about being an outsider as much as this guy did!

Despite all the "Great Rao" exclamations, I never got a sense that Superman was at all seriously religious. He honored Kryptonian holidays, certainly, but that was out of pride and respect for his heritage instead of piety.

Like a great many characters that Schwartz oversaw, Superman always seemed scientific, too secular and rational, as opposed to being mystical and intuitive. The best example of this "Schwartz-effect" is the Barry Allen Flash.

Maggin saw Superman as a cosmic monotheist, and something about that rings true. The idea he belongs to ONE religion and one only seems at odds with his "citizen of the world" characterization.

Quote from: Ruby Spears Superman
Don't even get me started on the reduced power thing. The movie Superman may not have been able blow stars out, but at least he could still crush coal into diamond. The post-crisis Superman couldn't do either one!  

The idea of Superman being low-powered sounds really good on paper, but in practice...the character just doesn't FEEL like Superman.

I do however, appreciate concessions to reality. For instance, Superman wearing a breathing mask for long trips in space. Superman is superpowerful, and can tolerate the hostile conditions in space easily...but he's still a living organism from a terrestrial planet.
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