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Author Topic: Silver Age Continuity  (Read 29054 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 09:26:52 PM »

Quote from: Gangbuster
By the 90s, comics were even more of a niche market than before, and it was no longer really helped to sell a single issue of a comic. You had to get people talking about a whole storyline, and buying as much of it as possible, by titling the storyline "F*** YOU, FANS!!!!"

There was the saga circa 1990 where Superman was finally allowed to travel in time after a 3-4 year ban. There was Armageddon 2001 in 1991 (which wasn't bad, I wish there had been a follow-up in 2001.) Then, finally, Jurgens said "It's time we do the death of Superman." Everyone was so angry, shocked, and confused that they bought 4 million copies of it (many of those speculators who bought multiple copies, though.)

Alright, I see your point. There certainly is an anti-traditional fan, or antagonistic element to a lot of these stories. Especially Emerald Twilight.

If they wanted to get rid of Hal Jordan and have the emphasis be on other GLs for a while, I'd be all in favor of that...my favorite period of GL was when Steve Englehart bumped Hal out and featured Jon Stewart. These eight issues, more than anything, established JS as a capable leading-man type, worthy of inclusion in things like the JLA cartoon. After eight issues of Jon, I didn't WANT Hal back.

Quote from: Gangbuster
I liked Reign of the Supermen though, and thought it was very creative.

"Reign" is actually a guilty pleasure of mine.

It's funny: I think it may have been the first Superman comic I ever read. At least that I can remember concretely: I think my brother may have had one or two neglected, ratty issues of WORLD'S FINEST.

A friend of mine at Hebrew school had a Dad that was a bigwig at a paper company (whether it was Dunder-Mifflin I never found out Cheesy ) and one day he brought to class a giant box filled to the brim with copies of ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #500, which he handed out like candy.

I wasn't at that time a big Superman fan (nor did I read any other comic, with the exception of Pablo Marcos on STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION), but hey...free comic, right?

Anyway, I casually followed what was going on after that. I actually thought I had it all figured out: the four Supermen were ALL Superman, only parts of him.

Steel had Superman's soul or spirit (as evidenced by his behavior and the comments of that psychic woman), Superboy had his life-force energy, the Eradicator had his mind and memory (only without his conscience), and the robot guy had his physical body (as confirmed by Doctor Hamilton).

Quote from: Gangbuster
Marvel even had to declare bankruptcy, a mess that they only got out of by selling movie rights.

I don't even PRETEND to understand Marvel Entertainment's financial problems in the 1990s, but from how it was explained to me, Marvel's bankruptcy was an artificial one, declared as a power-play between two bankers that wanted control of the company, and it had nothing to do with how much money Marvel was making.

On a related note, I love how all the right-wing sites are going on about how Bill and Hillary Clinton are personally responsible for the collapse of Stan Lee Media. There's this utterly weird video on You-Tube, which I have to provide a link to, that shows Stan Lee meeting with Michael Jackson.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 09:32:08 PM by JulianPerez » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2007, 12:20:42 AM »

In the 50s, a sensational cover or story would sell that month's comic.

By the 90s, comics were even more of a niche market than before, and it was no longer really helped to sell a single issue of a comic.

With the exception of a few serialized manga series and one or two alt comics that come out 2 or 3 times a year, I no longer read any continuity-style comics on a monthly basis.  But one of the great joys of following a series used to be the shock cover.  I could get very excited about the return of a favourite character or some sort of titanic showdown, especially if the story arc had been making preparations for this event for a long time.  It helped even more if the cover artist was the regular artist.  This was the case with many of the series I followed in the 1980s: Cerebus, Teen Titans, Fantastic Four, American Flagg!, Swamp Thing (and even of miniseries like Crisis, Dark Knight, and Watchmen) --powerful, narrative-driven cover image after powerful, narrative cover-image.  I don't think even the 70s Marvel comics had such an intimate connection between cover image and content/continuity.

Of course, part of the appeal was that the content and image were not plastered all over the net back then --at most, you would see a scan of the cover in Amazing Heroes or some other fanzine a few weeks early.  At worst, you only had the cliffhanger tease line at the end of last month's comic (ie, "Next: There Shall Come a Reckoning!").

Many of these "classic" 80s covers were what we would call "F--- you, fans"-style covers, meant to challenge, baffle, or enrage the readership, at the same making them intensely curious/hopeful.  The covers also established a rhythm to reading and collecting the comics.  Today, cover images (or alternate images) are part of the neverending online hype targetting the small niche market of adult superhero comics readers, but the trend of cultivating these fans who were more interested in character and plot development began long before and I think began to really crystalize in the 80s.

On a related note: can anyone point me to, or post images of, 10 classic stand-alone post-80s superhero covers?  How about 10 covers that played an important role in keeping you interested in a comic's continuity?

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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2007, 01:35:06 AM »

Quote
On a related note: can anyone point me to, or post images of, 10 classic stand-alone post-80s superhero covers?  How about 10 covers that played an important role in keeping you interested in a comic's continuity?

ermm. hummm.... hey look what's that over there!! (flys away)
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2007, 04:39:49 AM »

"I don't even PRETEND to understand Marvel Entertainment's financial problems in the 1990s, but from how it was explained to me, Marvel's bankruptcy was an artificial one, declared as a power-play between two bankers that wanted control of the company, and it had nothing to do with how much money Marvel was making."

The Comics Journal anniversary issue recently had an article about the so-called "Iron Age", focusing particularly on the ninties and Image and Marvel and most of it was spent talking about the legal and business tactics Marvel used during the ninties. Basically, they were trying to set up individual comic shops that would only sell their comics exclusively. The Heroes World purchase that they did that blew up in their face was just the first step in that.

They would get together with retailers and ask questions that went way beyond what a publisher needed to know about the business end. If the retailers wanted to continue to carry Marvel comics, they had to provide this information. Many of the retailers concluded that the only reason Marvel didn't go through with it was because they decided it wasn't economically pheasable for them, not because it would be unfair to retailers.

Another tactic they did was to oversaturate the market to take up shelf space in stores forcing retailers to choose between their books and someone elses, namely Image, because they felt like Image was taking away readers that rightfully belonged to them.     

All in all, the article really didn't paint Marvel in a very good light during this time, but yeah, the Micheal Jackson thing was mentioned in there too. 
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2007, 08:50:56 AM »

Both Marvel and DC are still fighting over shelf space, dumping tons of poorly-conceived, d-list titles and concepts on an already oversaturated market.  And the fans pretend like these are comics that they should take seriously because they use the same story-telling tropes and characters that have been used successfully in previous titles but really, from a continuity point of view, just clutter up the universe with crappy story arcs, villains, and supporting characters who only end up existing for 6-12 issues, if that.  Not to mention the event titles and spin-offs/special issues.

As a fan, I would have loved to read, say, a monthly title devoted to the adventures of Wonder Man and the Beast, but the talent pool necessary to support a quality franchise has never been there, because the readership has been shrinking since 1945 and not enough writers, artists, and editors of a certain level are/were attracted to the business of kids comics.

In some ways, the level of craft brought to bear on modern adventure comics is higher than it has been in decades --unfortunate that I can't get as worked up over what modern writers and artists create.

More on topic: I think a series set in the Planet newsroom (ie, all those aspects of Superman comics not featuring Superman) and focusing on Lois, Jimmy et al as part of an ensemble cast, would have been a great soap-y, post-Archie attraction in the Silver Age.

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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2007, 02:30:54 PM »

I really liked the limited scenes in the Daily Planet offices as a kid, that would have been cool.

I also always wanted a kind of "Legion Worlds" comic where I could read stories of the planets of the 30th century - not stories that had to correlate with some arcane fact from Adventure or some isolated issue of "Rip Hunter, Time Master" but stories that fleshed out a bigger universe.
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2007, 06:51:16 AM »

Quote from: TELLE
On a related note: can anyone point me to, or post images of, 10 classic stand-alone post-80s superhero covers?  How about 10 covers that played an important role in keeping you interested in a comic's continuity?

I always loved the Mark Texeira covers for BLACK PANTHER, which did not have crass things like the Panther about to marry an ameoba...but all the same they really set you up for the pulpy atmosphere of the book inside: views of the Panther stalking New York at night. Then again, Texeira could draw an exciting still-life, he's that dynamic.

Then you have the covers for Tom Peyer's HOURMAN (which incidentally, is the first DC comic I ever regularly read). My favorite was the one where Hourman was breaking through a wall while a mad scientist was turning a woman into a bird creature.

Here's a big example: the Busiek or Niceza THUNDERBOLTS. All their covers were great. They get the award for the most honest cover in history, which promised "A Guest Appearance by...the Hulk! (Or a reasonable facsimile thereof!)" There was also the image of Jolt, the T-Bolts' least powerful member, facing down by herself the superpowerful villain Graviton. Another great Bagley cover was the T-Bolts in a SHIELD crosshairs after their return from the Kosmos dimension.

I for one, am a big fan of the letterhead for Astro City. Or, as they write it, more like KURT BUSIEK'S Astro City.

Quote from: TELLE
Many of these "classic" 80s covers were what we would call "F--- you, fans"-style covers, meant to challenge, baffle, or enrage the readership, at the same making them intensely curious/hopeful.  The covers also established a rhythm to reading and collecting the comics.

I have never liked "deceitful" covers, whose value was in shocking the reader by promising a really unbelievable event was inside.

A good example of that would be the issue of the Englehart AMAZING ADVENTURES, which had the Beast's arms wrapped around the neck of Tony Stark's limp body, and Hank McCoy was shouting something like "Oh my God, I've KILLED Iron Man!"

It's a dirty trick to promise something in the comic that isn't delivered.

That's a source of extreme aggrivation to me with a lot of Silver Age comics which promise something like, say, Superman's wedding.

Quote from: TELLE
With the exception of a few serialized manga series and one or two alt comics that come out 2 or 3 times a year, I no longer read any continuity-style comics on a monthly basis. 

"...but I've STILL got an opinion on it, just the same!" Cheesy

Quote from: TELLE
because the readership has been shrinking since 1945 and not enough writers, artists, and editors of a certain level are/were attracted to the business of kids comics.

Actually, I would argue the opposite: more than ever before, there are all these great writers flocking TO comics now that guys like Neil Gaiman have made it a campy fad.

The obvious example would be bestselling novelist Brad Meltzer. The guy has the world at his feet, and instead of snorting lines of cocaine off Cameron Diaz's hoo-ha, he wrote GREEN ARROW. Go figure.

There's that other novelist that was going to do a remake of OMEGA THE UNKNOWN. The greatest fantasy novelist of all time, Michael Moorcock, did an Elric series with Walt Simonson and fill-in issues of TOM STRONG with Jerry Ordway that were the only issues of that wheezy, un-fun book that were ever truly cool. Then you've got Paul Dini, who is currently writing the Bat-Books; Richard Donner, who did an arc with Geoff Johns on Superman.

And then you've got that Babylon 5 guy, who's name I defy you to spell. Peter David has been writing comics, but he's also created TV shows and Star Trek tie-in novels. PAD's always been amphibious that way, so maybe he doesn't count.

There also have been persistent rumors for decades now that Steven King was interested in writing a funnybook. More recently, there's been a lot of buzz around Phil Pullman writing one; the guy, after all, does say that he was a regular reader of Superman and Batman.

For a far less talented example that I am loathe to bring up, take the human disaster area, Chuck Austen, who came back to comics from a period worknig on animation. He did TRIPPING THE RIFT, which I have never seen, but as it has Chuck Austen, it isn't the biggest jump to conclusions in the world to assume it's a heaping helping of elephant crap.

Quote from: TELLE
In some ways, the level of craft brought to bear on modern adventure comics is higher than it has been in decades --unfortunate that I can't get as worked up over what modern writers and artists create.

"After all, not one of those modern-day hacks have the talent to create a character as beloved by the world as Kite-Man, H.E.R.B.I.E., or Bat-Mite."

Quote from: TELLE
And the fans pretend like these are comics that they should take seriously because they use the same story-telling tropes and characters that have been used successfully in previous titles but really, from a continuity point of view, just clutter up the universe with crappy story arcs, villains, and supporting characters who only end up existing for 6-12 issues, if that.  Not to mention the event titles and spin-offs/special issues.

It occurs to me I've been a little hard on Superman's early Silver Age in this thread. But as godawful as a story that has Lois Lane temporarily transformed into a centaur, it's really no different from the un-read, un-loved characters in the DC or Marvel Universes. If characters like the Lab Rats, or minor Young Justice villains, are never seen or used again, it's like they never existed or the stories they were in never happened.

At least with SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND LOIS LANE, you're supposed to say I'M NOT LISTENING LALALALALALA!

If you don't see the Nuclear Family in decades, they might as WELL be out of continuity. It's like that Zen proverb Martial Arts masters use: "If a character is created and nobody else cares, do they really exist?"

And it isn't just characters or concepts. It's mindblowing ideas that are introduced and ignored. One issue of SUB-MARINER from the 1970s (this was, I believe, the very same story arc that brought Venus into the "modern" MU) dropped an unbelievable bombshell:

Ares, the Greek god of War, is responsible for the Vietnam War.

Quote from: MatterEaterLad
I also always wanted a kind of "Legion Worlds" comic where I could read stories of the planets of the 30th century - not stories that had to correlate with some arcane fact from Adventure or some isolated issue of "Rip Hunter, Time Master" but stories that fleshed out a bigger universe.

Wow, that would be bona-fide awesome.

Quote from: TELLE
Of course, part of the appeal was that the content and image were not plastered all over the net back then --at most, you would see a scan of the cover in Amazing Heroes or some other fanzine a few weeks early.  At worst, you only had the cliffhanger tease line at the end of last month's comic (ie, "Next: There Shall Come a Reckoning!").

Oh, no, comics fandom was at least as up on the content of future books in the past as today. The internet just makes it easier. That's the striking thing about fandom: it really is no different now than it was in the fifties, and I defy anyone to show me something that exists today that didn't exist in some form in previous comics ages.

Let me tell you a story: a friend of mine, who has been reading Avengers since the sixties, told me that around the time of Jim Shooter's run on Avengers, he heard a rumor that Jimmy was going to be making one of the Avengers into a villain.

A year later, Jimmy did the "Trial of an Avenger" stuff with Hank Pym, where he builds a robot to attack his buddies.

HMMMM....!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 07:03:33 AM by JulianPerez » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2007, 03:00:46 PM »

I think you miss the larger problem - these characters and their worlds are not a tiny part of multi billion corporate empires and despite all the media attention, these characters exist primarily for licensing purposes and since most people (civilians) sole knowledge of these characters are from primarily media usage (TV, movies) Superman was better as a reporter than a newscaster. 

No one cares about the intricate constructs of a universe in the comics.  More people watch Smallville or Lois and Clark ten years earlier than have picked up a comics mag in the past ten years.

Superman, Batman and other characters are just brand names like Yoo Hoo and Dr Pepper. The only continuity required to the general public is that yoo Hoo looks and tastes pretty much like the Yoo Hoo they know.  You can change the label on the outside slightly but it better be Yoo Hoo in the inside.
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