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Author Topic: John F. Kennedy lived  (Read 23893 times)
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DBN
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2011, 06:53:35 PM »

I'm not at all convinced Vietnam wouldn't have been just as messy and tragic with JFK in office.  After all, he put us there in the first place.  No president wanted to go down in history as the first to admit failure and defeat in a high-profile contest against Communism, and JFK already had the humiliation of the Bay of Pigs to live down.  I'm confident he'd have been as hamstrung by the "too deep in to give up now" mentality as anyone in the office.

Kennedy escalated our involvement, but Ike had around 900 advisors on the ground in the South after the French turned tail and ran.

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You'll note in the review DBN links to, the Vietnam conflict isn't treated any differently than any other war.  If not for the year in the indicia (1969), the story could have taken place in Korea or Japan just as easily.  That we're still in it in '69, and in apparently large numbers, shows there was an "escalation," but there's no suggestion of "suffering and upset" stateside.  Indeed, the war seems pretty much "out of sight, out of mind" for our cast of characters until Clark gets some letters from servicemen this one time, unlike WWII which drove all manner of comic-world references to spies, saboteurs, fifth columnists, quislings, shortages, paper drives, war bonds, etc.  In 40s comics, you never forgot there was a war on, but in 60s superhero comics, you could easily miss the fact that the US was in 'Nam at all.  But then there is this story, and the JLA tale spotlighting a returning Marine, and so on, so we know it did happen, just presumably in a tidier and less controversial fashion.  The Marvelverse got Oliver Stone's "Platoon" version of 'Nam, and DC got John Wayne's "Green Berets" version.



Were the War comics DC published in the same era considered to be part of the DC Universe at large? Our Fighting Forces featured US Army Captain Phil Hunter on the ground in Viet Nam trying to save his brother from a Viet Cong P.O.W. camp. This comic was published in 1966.
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nightwing
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2011, 01:15:51 AM »

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Were the War comics DC published in the same era considered to be part of the DC Universe at large? Our Fighting Forces featured US Army Captain Phil Hunter on the ground in Viet Nam trying to save his brother from a Viet Cong P.O.W. camp. This comic was published in 1966.

My inclination would be to say "no," not just for Vietnam but all war comics.  It greatly undermines the adventures of Sgt Rock, the Unknown Soldier and all the many one-timers in DC war comics to imagine them in the same world where the JSA or JLA ran around in tights and capes, and could have bailed them out any time they wanted.  I know Rock teamed with Batman numerous times, but those stories don't even make sense when linked to each other (because of various time paradoxes).  Anyway with Bob Haney writing, all bets are off; I don't consider *any* Brave and Bold team-up "canon," even the ones between Batman and other superheroes.

Of course that's just my personal preference, not official DC policy.  But I always enjoyed the war comics -- and indeed the horror and SF comics (and yes, I'll admit it, the occasional romance) -- better when I viewed them as separate from the world of superheroes.  Rock, Enemy Ace and the like lived with us on Earth-Prime (even if they later were revealed to have dopplegangers on Earth-1). 

The Creature Commandos were another matter, of course.

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India Ink
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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 12:52:21 AM »

I agree. Aside from crossover stories--and even those are a strange animal--each editor had command over his own turf. You don't see Weisinger doing Earth-Two stories for example--although alternate Earths were a part of his Superman mythology, just not any that belonged to Schwartz.

I think most readers understood this and accepted that the world of one comic wasn't necessarily the world of another comic. In fact, I think it was a surprise to me every time I did see one hero appearing in another's book.
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carmine
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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2011, 02:08:16 AM »

well the war comic guys could have existed on Earth 1 right? superman wouldn't have landed pre-ww2 (well he would have but it had a sliding time scale by the bronze age)

either way they should make a Unknown Solider Movie, that guy rocked (i guess sgt.rock rocked too!!! ha)
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nightwing
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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 02:25:15 AM »

The problem with Unknown Soldier is that he was always either disguised or in bandages, and no movie star would go for that.  Look at the "Human Target" series...not a disguise in sight.  (I really liked it anyway, though).
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Lee Semmens
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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2011, 08:06:05 AM »

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Were the War comics DC published in the same era considered to be part of the DC Universe at large? Our Fighting Forces featured US Army Captain Phil Hunter on the ground in Viet Nam trying to save his brother from a Viet Cong P.O.W. camp. This comic was published in 1966.

My inclination would be to say "no," not just for Vietnam but all war comics.  It greatly undermines the adventures of Sgt Rock, the Unknown Soldier and all the many one-timers in DC war comics to imagine them in the same world where the JSA or JLA ran around in tights and capes, and could have bailed them out any time they wanted.  I know Rock teamed with Batman numerous times, but those stories don't even make sense when linked to each other (because of various time paradoxes).  Anyway with Bob Haney writing, all bets are off; I don't consider *any* Brave and Bold team-up "canon," even the ones between Batman and other superheroes.


Bob Haney and editor Murray Boltinoff often threw logic and continuity out the window with their Brave and the Bold teamups.

There was that notorious Batman/Sgt. Rock teamup during WWII, with Batman wearing the yellow oval on his chest, yet he could not have been the Earth-1 Batman, as he would would not be around for many years to come!

I seriously doubt that any other editors or writers at DC took much notice, or referred to what happened in the Brave and the Bold Haney-verse.

The funny thing is, although the story was (apparently) never published, his creator, Bob Kanigher maintained that Rock was actually killed at the end of WWII! So who was the Sgt. Rock running around with Batman?!?

By the way, I am actually a fan of many of the Brave and the Bold comics, especially the ones with Jim Aparo art.
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2011, 03:15:19 PM »

Oh, I love a lot of those B&B books, but you have to accept that they are not and cannot be part of official continuity. 

You'd have to work to find a longer run of amazing Batman art than what Jim Aparo turned in, and when he was on his game Haney was terrific, too.  But there were other times -- and not a few -- where he just phoned it in and nothing made any sense.  I have no big problem divorcing the stories from "continuity," but Batman ought to at least act like Batman, and often he does not, for instance falling for Roxie Whatsername and being duped into doing her duty work because she's such a gorgeous "dame."  (I don't know who still said "dame" in the 70s, but it wouldn't have been Batman!).  Also I hated that Haney had such animus towards Plastic Man, who's consistently portrayed as a sad sack "freak" unable to do anything right and consumed with depression and low self-esteemed.  And yet Metamorpho -- a very similar character only much uglier -- is perfectly well-adjusted!

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There was that notorious Batman/Sgt. Rock teamup during WWII, with Batman wearing the yellow oval on his chest, yet he could not have been the Earth-2 Batman, as he would would not be around for many years to come!

What was more jarring was that Batman could fight alongside Rock in WWII and then have a follow-up adventure with him later, when Rock is old and white-haired, but Bruce Wayne is totally unchanged! 

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The funny thing is, although the story was (apparently) never published, his creator, Bob Kanigher maintained that Rock was actually killed at the end of WWII! So who was the Sgt. Rock running around with Batman?!?

Again, the only way it works for me is if the "real" Rock is on Earth-Prime and the "Haney" Rock is on Earth-1.

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India Ink
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »

Yes, in fact, I think Roy Thomas made more work for himself than he needed to, when he came over to DC in the early 80s and wrote the All-Star Squadron book. Because then he was trying to make sense of things that didn't have to make sense before. So he was moving characters around from one Earth to another.

It would have been a lot easier to assume there was a Captain Marvel on Earth-Two as well as Earth-S. That Plastic Man existed on Earths-One, Two, X, B. Same with Blackhawk. That the Freedom Fighters were on both Earth-Two and Earth-X. And so on.
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