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February 03, 2023, 02:57:53 AM


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Author Topic: Bush, Al-Qaeda, Iraq, Truth & Justice, and...Superman  (Read 17729 times)
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Aldous
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2004, 11:10:12 PM »

Quote from: "Nightwing"
Aldous, I wrote a very long (and of course brilliant ) response, then got an "invalid session" error and lost the whole thing.


I'm sorry for what was lost (because now I'll never get to read it), but hopefully you have learned your lesson and you will protect things you have written before hitting the Submit button!

True, Superman is not a government stooge, as you put it, even if he is occasionally portrayed this way. Somewhere around here India Ink and I touched on Superman breaking the law of the land because of his recognition of a higher "moral" law. I think Superman wants to obey the laws of the land, and I think he knows he is dangerously close to being a stooge. Does Superman obey the local laws when he's in the States, but not when he's in (say) Iraq? Would he happily hand over a petty thief to Saddam's police to have the thief's hand cut off with a butcher's knife? (That, after all, is the law of the land.)

So you see that Superman is law-abiding, but probably only when the laws are American. So I could come from the angle that Superman is not a champion of the law, but a champion of America. This makes him political, like it or not.

No, the "American Way" phrase gives me no trouble. I am personally glad the United States is the dominant superpower in the world. I would be very nervous if it were anyone else. I can take America as it is, warts and all, and see what a wonderfully stabilising and positive force it is. Too many Americans now, when discussing their country, start off with an apology.
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Super Monkey
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2004, 02:48:59 AM »

Great thread guys!

S!
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nightwing
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2004, 06:59:11 PM »

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So you see that Superman is law-abiding, but probably only when the laws are American. So I could come from the angle that Superman is not a champion of the law, but a champion of America. This makes him political, like it or not.


Sure you could argue it, but I'm not buying.

I look at it this way:  Superman has his own internal sense of right and wrong, which inevitably (albeit rarely, in established canon) comes into conflict with "laws" as written and enforced by governments.  And that includes the US government.  After all, justice and law are not at all the same thing.  Superman works for justice, even when that means breaking the law (though in fairness that happens to him a lot less than, say, Batman, for whom breaking and entering, assault, etc are routine exercises).

The difference is that Superman butts heads with the law much less often in America than he would almost anywhere else in the world.  We may argue endlessly about whether our laws are as fair as they should be, but that's something else entirely from countries whose laws are obviously, patently unfair on their face.  For example, if Saddam had a law that whosoever speaks out against Saddam shall have his tongue cut out, well sure that's a "valid" law in the sense that a recognized government decreed it and will enforce it, but it's a law Superman's not going to feel too warm and fuzzy about.

Short version:  if Superman goes against the laws of Iraq or some other totalitarian regime, does that mean he's doing the work of America? No.  It just means he's standing up for his own beliefs, and for the rights of the little guy.  He'd do the same thing in America, and has in fact done so at times.

The fact that he has to do it so rarely here in the States may explain why he chooses to live here and not somewhere else!
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NotSuper
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2004, 09:17:27 PM »

Quote
So you see that Superman is law-abiding, but probably only when the laws are American. So I could come from the angle that Superman is not a champion of the law, but a champion of America. This makes him political, like it or not.

I could easily see Superman breaking the law of ANY country to do the right thing. Personally, I would consider justice to supersede the law. Having said that, I don't think Superman would go around breaking laws and enforcing his will on humans: he's not a fascist. I would think that Superman's view of law would actually come from Krypton, rather than America (if we're talking pre-Crisis). Is Superman a champion of America? You bet. His main interests are usually devoted to America. Yet he's also a champion of the world.

I don't think this makes Superman "political." If anything, Earth politics shouldn't matter too much to him (unless lives are at risk). Politics are filled with trivialities and people who care more about their side winning than doing what is right. Superman does the right thing no matter what.
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Aldous
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2004, 06:45:57 PM »

Quote from: "Nightwing"
The fact that he has to do it so rarely here in the States may explain why he chooses to live here and not somewhere else!


Good point.
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wellsy
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2004, 11:11:46 AM »

Your arguments about Superman personifying America are all good - i agree with them.

BUT, I do NOT believe that the American way, and truth and justice, are wholly compatible. The American Dream would be better than the American Way, and it is this that worries me.

With President Bush's recent attack on Labor (and Opposition) Leader Mark Latham on behalf of John Howard (our snobby, snivvelish little weasel of a Prime Minister) gives me the impression that America is trying to interfere where it should not. The response here has been the opposite of what Howard wanted, with Latham getting an enourmous amount of support from the people. And his restraint in his reply demonstrated what SHOULD be done. If Superman goes into another country, and breaks one of their laws, just because he thinks that his ideals are better, is still no excuse. He must still be heard accountable for his crimes, and even in America, in the comics, he hits crooks so hard they could probably act as witnesses for assault or excessive force charges.

And if he represents the American Way, he does not really represent democracy either. You Americans have your own aristocracy, its the top 5 - 10% of the population who own 95% of the wealth. You essentially elect your monarch. And you censor what you don't want the people to hear (please read Fahrenheit 451 if you want an American's view on censorship). Personally, communism is probably something America should really look at. The basic idea of communism is so blatently compatable with the declaration of Independance and the American Constitution that its almost inconcievable how America would ban communists. Russian communism was perverted by Stalin, but the basic idea of Karl Marx challenged the rich Americans, who decided that it would be in their interests, and hence the nation's interests, to give communism the boot.

Another thing that worries me is the neo-conservatives in the White House. I read an article earlier this week about how the neo-cons want America to become so powerful that no coalition of powers could ever challenge the US. If Superman wants to defend the people who would take over the world and rule it, preaching one thing and then violating their own preachings, then he should take a very good look at himself.

The American Way is what worries me: American justice is not the same as justice elsewhere, as you still want people to get the death penalty, even though 'many that lived deserved death, and some that died deserved life.' American truth... dear God! What a farce! American truth is there to inspire patriotism. In October 2002, 200-odd people were killed while holidaying in Bali. The Americans only heard about the two Americans that were killed. It took a whole year for the Americans to learn that another 200 odd Australians, New Zealanders, English, Balinese, etc people had also died. So much for a wholemeal truth.

And the American way. interfering with other nations affairs, dabbling in thins that should be best left for another time. Like hell i'd defend it!

But the American Dream - now there's something I am not so concerned about. I know I have absolutely drilled America's ways, but this is my view.

So some questions for you - Would Superman protect someone who had broken an American law, but was not an Americna citizen? Would Superman protect an American who broke the law of another sovreign state? Does Superman idealise the American Dream, or the American Way? And for all of these questions, ask yourselves WHY he would or wouldn't.
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Aldous
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2004, 01:02:24 PM »

Quote from: "wellsy"
And the American way. interfering with other nations affairs, dabbling in thins that should be best left for another time. Like hell i'd defend it!


You paint with a very broad brush, old son.

You enjoy the luxury of being able to denigrate your country's ally.

If the United States had your proposed policy of minding their own business, you and I would not be having this conversation. We would be mumbling platitudes in Japanese and building roads on a bowl of rice per day.
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lastkryptonianhere
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2004, 06:15:05 PM »

Quote from: "wellsy"
Your arguments about Superman personifying America are all good - i agree with them.

BUT, I do NOT believe that the American way, and truth and justice, are wholly compatible. The American Dream would be better than the American Way, and it is this that worries me. .


The American Dream is a simple thing - that the children of Americans will have a better way of living/life than their parents.  I am living the American Dream as is my wife and millions of Americans.  While some are not living the American Dream all Americans have the opportunity.  As for the American way of Life, liberty and the pursit of happiness it is part of the American Dream.

Quote from: "wellsy"
The American Way is what worries me: American justice is not the same as justice elsewhere, as you still want people to get the death penalty, even though 'many that lived deserved death, and some that died deserved life.' American truth... dear God! What a farce! American truth is there to inspire patriotism. In October 2002, 200-odd people were killed while holidaying in Bali. The Americans only heard about the two Americans that were killed. It took a whole year for the Americans to learn that another 200 odd Australians, New Zealanders, English, Balinese, etc people had also died. So much for a wholemeal truth. .


Get your information straight sir because the news media here - CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, NBC, CBS, ABC all reported the Bali terrorist attack and while the dead Americans were focused on the reports of the total dead were covered and sir I learned that the day of the attack not a year later as you implied.  I wonder if you were still in your native land or were visiting in the US at the time because your information on that point was so incorrect.

Quote from: "wellsy"
And the American way. interfering with other nations affairs, dabbling in thins that should be best left for another time. Like hell i'd defend it!.


I will admit we sometimes interfer where we should just stay out but how many countries look to the United States for assistance in times of need or disaster?  We are not perfect but neither is the world and terrorist attacks left unchecked will create choas even worse than we have in Iraq right now.


Quote from: "wellsy"
So some questions for you - Would Superman protect someone who had broken an American law, but was not an Americna citizen? Would Superman protect an American who broke the law of another sovreign state? Does Superman idealise the American Dream, or the American Way? And for all of these questions, ask yourselves WHY he would or wouldn't.


Depends on the writer and editor after all Superman is a fictional character.

By the way you still speak English down under and not Japanese I do believe down there don't you?
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