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Poll
Question: If the 2004 presidential election were held today, for whom would you vote?  (Voting closed: November 02, 2004, 06:52:47 AM)
Batman and Robin - 5 (50%)
Lex Luthor and the Riddler - 5 (50%)
Two Face - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 10

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Author Topic: Presidential Poll  (Read 7634 times)
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Great Rao
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« on: July 25, 2004, 12:52:47 PM »

During the 2000 election, we ran our first online presidential poll.  It listed all the candidates, including Lex Luthor - who DC comics had put in the running.  We got a great response and a lot of comments.  In that vein, here's 2004's poll:

[list=1]

  •          ...         Robin ... and Batman


  •    Lex Luthor and E. Nigma
    (for bonus credit, see if you can identify Bush's new running mate.
     Answer coming soon!)



  •  Two-Face
    [/list:o]
    Last time around, Lex won both our poll and the election!  So remember, your vote counts!
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2004, 02:54:24 AM »

Ahem.

Despite the jaw...and the bank account...John Kerry is not Batman.  He's more like Clayface, not only because of the melting visage, but also his fantastic ability to change himself into whatever he needs to be at any given moment.  Even if it's the complete opposite of what he was earlier in the day.

And there could only be one Robin...Dan Quayle.  I used to have to do a double-take everytime I saw him to convince myself I was not looking at Burt Ward.  Plus that "Golly Gee, Batman, let's go get 'em!" attitude was dead on. But I think Robin could spell.

And wasn't Two-Face only half green?  Nader's 100%.

I'm voting for Lex Luthor.  Or Brainwave Junior as we call him around here.
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KryptoniteKills
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2004, 05:30:20 AM »

Gephardt Looks kind of like Adam West.  To bad he's not in the running any more.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2004, 12:53:50 PM »

As long as we're wandering down this road, here's a fun photo I found elsewhere online...

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Great Rao
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2004, 06:20:09 PM »

Quote from: "nightwing"
Despite the jaw...and the bank account...John Kerry is not Batman.

It works for me.  Kerry has been a politician for a long time and, as a Massachusetts resident, I've been following his career since it started back in the 1970s.  Then, he was full of youthful idealism, strength, and drive - fighting the good fight.   He kept at it through the 80s and 90s, and had to face countless bitter attacks from more powerful foes.  After each seeming defeat, he would ultimately manage to pull through.  Watching his presidential campaign, I saw that he still had his strength, but he seemed battle scarred.  There was an aura of tiredness and "old war horse"-edness about him.  The days of his best battles were behind him.

But once he chose Edwards as his running mate, he came back to life.  There was just something about it that reminded me of the Dark Knight Returns Batman, who didn't really come back to life until he had a new, enthusiastic and energetic Robin by his side.  Someone who didn't really know what those old powerful enemies were capable of, or of the damage they could inflict, but who just went along with it all because it was so exciting.

Quote
And wasn't Two-Face only half green?  Nader's 100%.

Here, I wasn't referring to the skin color - but to the overall character.  He was once a hero, as was DA Harvey Dent.  But like Two-Face, Nader's half damaged face is an outward reflection of how his once-good intentions have twisted into an ego-driven and ultimately destructive psychological blindess.  He's not the same man he used to be.

As far as the Lex/Bush connection - what other president can claim to be a clone of himself, masquerading as his own son?  :wink:
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 06:52:41 PM »

Quote
Then, he was full of youthful idealism, strength, and drive. He kept at it through the 80s and 90s, and had to face countless bitter attacks from more powerful foes, but always managed to pull through.


I have to research him more in the months ahead (no doubt his camp will be sending out plenty of free info, and he'll probably "write" a book like every other candidate, but that kind of propaganda doesn't count...I need to research the news archives here at the university), but my impression of him so far is that, as you say, he's a political survivor.  Which often means doing, saying and becoming whatever's necessary to stay in office.

He's a Vietnam hero, but a Vietnam protestor...he's pro-Iraq War, yet anti-Iraq War...he threw away his medals, but he saved them, too...loves his "brothers in arms," but called them baby-killers before Congress...poses with shotguns to get the good old boy vote, but votes anti-gun 51 out of 55 times...says life begins at conception, but votes pro-abortion.  And so on.

I guess for me Kerry so far represents the modern approach to politics...take the middle of the road and paint the other guy as the extremist.  I kind of miss the days when candidates could have real debates over ideas instead of racing each other to the center.  ("No, I beg to differ!  I love apple pie much more than my opponent ever will!")  I'd love to know what he stands for...if anything...and hope to find out this week with the convention coverage.

Anyway, the Batman analogy doesn't work for me because Bruce Wayne is focused on a mission to the point of obsession, and often to the detriment of his well-being.  Kerry on the other hand seems not to have decided what his mission is, other than looking after his well-being.

Quote
Watching his presidential campaign, I saw that he still had his strength, but there was an aura of tiredness and "old war horse"-edness about him. The days of his best battles were behind him.


I'm no fan, but you've gotta admit the primary process would be daunting even for a much younger man than Kerry. So if he looked tired, it's understandable.  On the other hand, I'd say he didn't really face a lot of battles at that stage, since most of the candidates showed up ready to sling mud at Dean and not Kerry.  Who knew?

Quote
But once he chose Edwards as his running mate, he came back to life.


Yes, but to play the cynic again (what the heck, I'm in the mood), many see this as another case of Kerry's shape-shifting.  Having run out of steam with the "mad as Hell" anti-War persona he "borrowed" from Dean, Kerry's now re-energized himself by "borrowing" Edward's campaign of optimism and smiles.  (Not to mention Ronald Reagan's old speeches..."We're the can-do country...our best days are ahead of us..." Hey kids, it's morning in America...again!)

Quote
But like Two-Face, Nader's half damaged face is an outward reflection of his well intended but ultimately destructive psychological blindess. He's not the same man he once was.


Indeed, Nader is unsafe at any speed.

Quote
As far as the Lex/Bush connection - what other president can claim to be a clone of himself, masquerading as his own son?


Except for pulling a sequel to the Gulf War, I don't see that at all.  "W" has bent over backward to fashion himself after Reagan and not his dad. Of course it's debatable how well he's done at that, or whether it was even an admirable goal.

I suppose I can live with your likening Bush to Luthor (DC sure milked the analogy long enough, though ever-so-slightly veiled).  At least it's a unique criticism of "W" to compare him to a genius, evil or not!
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Great Rao
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 09:18:55 PM »

Nightwing, you've mixed old Vietman era issues in with modern issues, I'm going to separate them out.
Quote from: "nightwing"
He's a Vietnam hero, but a Vietnam protestor...he threw away his medals, but he saved them, too...loves his "brothers in arms," but called them baby-killers before Congress...

These arguments never made sense to me.  I think it's extremely heroic to face the horrors of war and put one's life on the line for one's country.  But I also think it's extremely heroic to return from that war, put one's reputation on the line, and report what one has seen.  Knowing that it's unpopular and risky.  To take action about it, and to try to institute reform within the system.  This is never a popular or easy thing to do.  It shows that Kerry had a strong moral sense, and that he was deeply upset by the fact that he (and other soldiers) had been ordered to commit atrocities.  Speaking out about it was not a "safe" thing to do.  These men felt that their country had been violated by an immoral government.

Looking back and judging events that occured during the Vietnam War using modern points-of-view and sensibilities just doesn't work.  It was an extremely different time, and the country was literally torn in two.  But I think that (like today), people on both sides were each trying to do what they thought was best for the country.  This doesn't mean that one of those sides was unpatriotic.  Far from it.  There can be nothing more patriotic than loving your country so much, that you do everything you can, no matter the personal consequences, to fix it.  To try to make it be what it should be.


As far as the Iraq war, gun issues, and abortion go:  These are always hot topics, but I'll trust to Super Monkey's judgement.

Iraq: Again, try to put yourself in the immediate post 9/11 environment.  There was an incredible sense of loss, national unity and determination.  I think it's entirely possible (and likely) to initially trust our president to do what's best, but then later, after seeing how he performed with that trust, to remove one's support.

Gun issues:  I never understood why some hunters and other gun advocates believe that they need the right to own major assault weapons.  Most of these gun votes that you talk about are doing things like establishing reasonable limits, and I support them.

Abortion, too, is a complex issue that continues to be over simplified by both sides, not just by the extreme right wing.  Yes, abortion should always be a last resort, not the casual birth control option that some people regard it as.  It seems like the left wants them legal and common, the right wants them illegal and nonexistent.  But neither approach is a real solution.

The real way to "fight" abortion is to encourage education, morality, honesty, communication, loving relationships, birth control, acceptance, and adoption.  But none of these is a simple solution.  Just making it illegal is not the answer, it's like putting a band-aid on a cancer.  There will always be women who feel like they have no choice (because of rape, incest, stubborness, shame, fear, being under age, whatever) who will be forced to seek out illegal abortions, thereby putting their own lives at risk.  Remember, this is why abortion was legalized in the first place.  There are also medical issues - sometimes the baby is severly deformed and would die at birth, the mother's life is at risk, etc.  And in these sorts of situations, a women and her docter should not be hamstrung by the government.  So, as Kerry says, abortion should be rare but always legal and safe because it will be needed.  The two sides need to reach an accord, because they really both want the same thing: a just society.  That's not middle of the road, that's a complex solution to a complex problem.

So regarding these various modern issues, I would say that Kerry is a diplomat, which, in this divided country, is something we sorely need.

Quote

I'm no fan, but you've gotta admit the primary process would be daunting even for a much younger man than Kerry. So if he looked tired, it's understandable.  On the other hand, I'd say he didn't really face a lot of battles at that stage, since most of the candidates showed up ready to sling mud at Dean and not Kerry.  Who knew?

His battle at that point was to be taken seriously, which no one did.

Quote
Indeed, Nader is unsafe at any speed.

Just like the Corvair. :? *duck*
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"The bottom line involves choices.  Neither gods nor humans have ever stood calmly in a minefield forever.  Good or evil, they are bound to choose.  And when they do, you will see the truth of all that motivates us.  As a thinking being, you have the obligation to choose.  If the fate of all mankind were in your hands, what would your decision be?  As a writer and an artist, I've drawn my answer."   - Jack Kirby
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2004, 01:52:50 PM »

Quote
These arguments never made sense to me. I think it's extremely heroic to face the horrors of war and put one's life on the line for one's country. But I also think it's extremely heroic to return from that war, put one's reputation on the line, and report what one has seen.


I don't necessarily have a problem with Kerry (1) fighting when called to and (2) coming back to protest the war.  My point is that the net result, for Kerry, is that potential voters are once again left with two outwardly incongruous images.  There is the image of the young, smartly uniformed officer leading his sailors into battle, but also of the young, long-haired slouch leading a hippie armie down the Washington Mall.  That could work to his advantage, if both veterans and peaceniks focus on the images that appeal to them respectively, or it could work against him if each faction fixates on his time spent on "the other side."  But to the average voter, who likes things cut-and-dried and candidates easily labeled, it's just flat out confusing.  Never a good thing, politically.

The only part I do have a problem with is Kerry making a great show of throwing away "his" medals, only to find out they were someone else's, and he kept his.  You have to admit throwing away another man's medals is a very hollow and empty gesture.  I can respect his hating the war, but if you have such strong beliefs, follow through.  (I don't buy his excuse that they weren't handy at the time.  If so, fine, when you get home, throw away the real ones!) And it troubles me because it brings up the spectre of Clinton, another man who played both sides against the middle and ended up standing for nothing.  I may be the only person around who really believes Bill "didn't inhale." It would be just like him to put a blunt in his mouth but not light up, in an effort to please both his doper friends and his straight friends all at once.

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Speaking out about it was not a "safe" thing to do. These men felt that their country had been violated by an immoral government.


Well, you're right that it wasn't safe.  We now know that Nixon paid a lot of attention to Kerry's testimony and considered going after him for it.  Something else Kerry may want to make some political hay of in the next few months.

Quote
Iraq: Again, try to put yourself in the immediate post 9/11 environment. There was an incredible sense of loss, national unity and determination. I think it's entirely possible (and likely) to initially trust our president to do what's best, but then later, after seeing how he performed with that trust, to remove one's support.


Well, saying "let's go" then saying "We shouldn't have gone" is one thing.  But the way it played out was with votes; a vote to send troops, then a vote against financing their efforts.  It's not so hard to portray this record as a repeat of Vietnam, only this time with Kerry in the role of the villainous politician instead of the virtuous kid on the front lines.

Quote
Gun issues: I never understood why some hunters and other gun advocates believe that they need the right to own major assault weapons. Most of these gun votes that you talk about are doing things like establishing reasonable limits, and I support them.


Well, I don't think most hunters want an assault rifle.  But the stand of the NRA has been that any regulation is a foot in the door to more regulations, until one day there are no guns, period.  Does this make sense?  Not really.  But on the other side of the aisle, you have liberals fighting tooth and nail against banning pornography, because once you censor Hustler, then it's just a matter of time before you shut down Boy's Life.  I don't buy the arguments in either case.

Again, though, my point is that Kerry is going out of his way to be photographed on hunting trips, which can't please the gun control advocates.  But gun fans know it's all for show, since he's been a foe of guns on the floor of the Senate.  So is he trying to please both sides, or make them both angry?  And everyone in the middle is left, again, wondering just what he stands for.  If he's against guns, let him say so.  If he's for 'em, let's hear that, too.  I guess what I'm saying is that where you see a dauntless crusader, I see a man putting his convictions aside to pander to votes.  And maybe you have a better perspective, being from his home state, but I'm telling you that as part of the national audience he's now going for, Kerry needs to start making me see in him whatever it is you seem to.  And so far, by playing both sides at once, he's not pulling it off.

Quote
Abortion, too, is a complex issue that continues to be over simplified by both sides, not just by the extreme right wing. Yes, abortion should always be a last resort, not the casual birth control option that some people regard it as. It seems like the left wants them legal and common, the right wants them illegal and nonexistent. But neither approach is a real solution.


It never makes me popular to say so, but I kind of like things the way they are.  I don't want abortion illegal, because they were before and people still got them...in the most horrible ways.  However, I don't want them cheap and easy, either.  I like that a woman can get an abortion without having to fill out government forms and turn it into an exercise in bureaucracy.  But I also like that she has to agonize over it and -- often -- enter the clinic through a gauntlet of protestors.  Every time I hear a woman say, "it was the hardest thing I ever did," I want to say, "Good! It should be!  And you should never get over it."

And speaking as someone who's due to be a dad soon for the second time, I think if the government wants to make ANY law it should be to make women go in for mandatory ultra-sounds before their abortions.  My wife had one at only 9 weeks (!) along and already we could see a living, moving creature in there.  What a woman does after that is her business.

Anyway, I think it's all moot. No president has the ability to legalize or outlaw abortion, so it doesn't matter so much what either guy thinks.  

I watched some of the convention last night.  Interesting stuff.  My vote for science fiction author of the year goes to Bill Richardson, who somehow managed to portray Jimmy Carter's administration as a time of progress and national pride.

And hey, ins't it interesting that since the "Clubhouse" forum went up, discussions here have been almost entirely political?  :?
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