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Author Topic: "Classic" Superman in Hero System/Champions  (Read 21187 times)
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JulianPerez
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2005, 04:35:12 PM »

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
FWIW, I think it makes more sense to play Silver/Bronze Age Superman as a GM's ''deus ex machina" within the Champions framework, rather than as a guy with a character sheet.  The mechanics of the game tend to fall apart with the extremely powerful  DC folks (e.g. a maximum of 12 SPD).  


How I chose to represent Superman's superspeed is detailed in the "About the Conversion" section, and IMHO, I think it is both more playable and more importantly, more accurate, than if he was given 50 SPD or something.

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Limiting him to 90 active points per power helps establish parity with "typical" 250-500 point Champions folks to the point that he might be playable.  But that limit just scratches the surface of what pre-Crisis Supes is capable of. 90 active points doesn't get you to igniting distant suns with heat vision.  


Even an EB by itself can't give you that sort of effect. Igniting distant suns would be a fairly powerful Transform instead of just an EB by itself (there's not a point where the book says, "Okay, if an attack does this much BODY, it can ignite a sun too"). The key to representing Superman that this sheet takes is that just buying things in gigantic bulk doesn't accurately represent Superman; this is why other character sheets I've seen of him are both unplayable and rather sloppy; he has a wide breadth of ability that isn't shown.

To represent his limitless strength, for instance, I bought extra STR past the 90 Active Points with the Does No Damage and No Figured Characteristics enhancements.

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
That being said, it's a fine effort if you want to make it.  You're missing the power stunt where he freezes someone into suspended animation, which goes a little beyond an Entangle.


Ooooh! Forgot about that one. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, UncleMxy.

Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
2) Self-hypnosis. Pre-Crisis Superman could hypnotize himself very powerfully, to forget certain events typically, and otherwise force his mind and body to do unnatural things when the plot device called for it.


I bought him Simulate Death and other Talents that partially represent this. Here are some ways to handle this sort of thing:

1) Shape Change with the Mental Group;

2) Allowing Superman's Super-Hypnotism Transform to work on himself. Normally, this isn't allowed, but may be justified as a part of the "special effect" that the hypnosis comes from his eyes. Yes, it can be blocked or deflected by mirrors, but he can use a mirror to hypnotize himself. Also as a disadvantage to the special effect, he can be hypnotized into hypnotizing himself (don't think about it too hard, your brain will pop like a grape).

Quote from: "lonewolf23k"
You know, considering the vast range of Classic Superman's powers, I'd think that a Variable Power Pool would almost certainly work for him..


Others may feel differently, but I've always thought that in a representation of a fictional character, that something like an Omni-Power or a VPP is kind of a cheat; that is, instead of going to the trouble of figuring out what the character can do and has done in the past, it says, "okay, here's a bunch of points, now leave me the hell alone."
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2005, 05:45:54 PM »

Quote from: "JulianPerez"
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
FWIW, I think it makes more sense to play Silver/Bronze Age Superman as a GM's ''deus ex machina" within the Champions framework, rather than as a guy with a character sheet.  The mechanics of the game tend to fall apart with the extremely powerful  DC folks (e.g. a maximum of 12 SPD).  

How I chose to represent Superman's superspeed is detailed in the "About the Conversion" section, and IMHO, I think it is both more playable and more importantly, more accurate, than if he was given 50 SPD or something.

Understood.  I'm referring more to the mechanics of the game as a whole.  IMO, Champions is useful for a certain range of super ability.  It's not terribly good at either the low-end (a little above human norms) or the high end (pre-Crisis Superman, Dr. Manhattan, The Spectre, etc).  

Quote
Quote from: "Uncle Mxy"
Limiting him to 90 active points per power helps establish parity with "typical" 250-500 point Champions folks to the point that he might be playable.  But that limit just scratches the surface of what pre-Crisis Supes is capable of. 90 active points doesn't get you to igniting distant suns with heat vision.  

Even an EB by itself can't give you that sort of effect. Igniting distant suns would be a fairly powerful Transform instead of just an EB by itself (there's not a point where the book says, "Okay, if an attack does this much BODY, it can ignite a sun too").

In that case, the Sun (if it were a character) would have the Transform or Absorption or whatnot, conditional upon having massive amounts of heat pointed at it.  Supes would be generating the heat.  His eyes may emit heat vision, but not the gas and dust that's needed to make a sun, or even a Great Wall of China.  Smiley

Quote
Others may feel differently, but I've always thought that in a representation of a fictional character, that something like an Omni-Power or a VPP is kind of a cheat; that is, instead of going to the trouble of figuring out what the character can do and has done in the past, it says, "okay, here's a bunch of points, now leave me the hell alone."

Past a certain point, VPPs can simply be more economical from a "points" perspective.  If you're spending more for MP slots than it would cost for a VPP, then you're probably wasting points.  This doens't mean that you can't break out typical ways in which the VPP will be allocated, but it leaves the door open for new stunts or rationalizations.
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RedSunOfKrypton
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2005, 12:30:48 AM »

Quote
pop like a grape


Mmmmm, grape pop, thanks a lot Julian, now I have to go to the store. Tongue

Half on topic, I made Superman for GURPS once, he was way overpowered for the people I was playing with (even though I did weaken him significantly, think golden age with some tweaks) so he never got used.
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"...and as the fledgeling Man of Steel looks for the first time over the skyline of this city, this, Metropolis, he utters the syllables with which history is made and legends are forged: This, looks like a job...for Superman."
JulianPerez
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2005, 06:28:54 AM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
DC Heroes RPG had a similar concept.

Superman could have a limited number of APs of Omnipower that could be directed to just about any power with the caveat that he paid the base cost of the power in APs as well.  This worked for the Green Lantern RPG book.  It might be further limited to physical and mental powers with none of the mystical ones in DCH RPG.


If you have the Green Lantern Corps sourcebook for DC Heroes, I'm officially totally jealous of you right now. I've been looking for that thing for years and years.

Omni-Gadgets may work for characters like Green Arrow that somehow always manage to have just the right trick arrow for the situation (and has tons of gadget arrows that he never uses again) and Omni-Powers for Green Lantern, who has used his power ring at various points to shrink to tiny size, teleport, cure diseases, and make binoculars that let him see halfway around a planet. But Superman?

Superman has several set powers. In many ways, the Mayfair DC Heroes represented the character best (though note that his character sheet in that game, at least the '86 version I own, leaves off his sonic shout and super-scent powers - tsk, tsk). The DC Heroes system was in many ways, well-designed for the type of gaming superpowers involved. If Superman wants to rub his hands together to create a static electricity lightning bolt, in DC Heroes he can check his Superspeed power against the Universal Modifiers Table for the OV/RV (Herculean in this instance, so 12 to both), and the RAPs would be his APs in the Lightning power just for his turn.

Any possible permutation of powers found in Superman's comics, from rubbing his hands to cause the Daily Planet globe to become a supermagnet, to him using his strength to punch the ground and make an earthquake, would be represented in this way. I don't see why Superman needs an Omni-Power.
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"Wait, folks...in a startling new development, Black Goliath has ripped Stilt-Man's leg off, and appears to be beating him with it!"
       - Reporter, Champions #15 (1978)
SteamTeck
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2005, 03:10:53 AM »

Here's a site that made a shot at writing up lots and lots of heroes. It has both classic and golden age Superman

    http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html
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Uncle Mxy
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« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2005, 01:19:13 PM »

Quote from: "SteamTeck"
Here's a site that made a shot at writing up lots and lots of heroes. It has both classic and golden age Superman

    http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html


For Golden Age Superman, the best part is this Disadvantage:

3340   Galactically stupid (never uses full power, ever)
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Captain Kal
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« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2005, 02:58:52 PM »

:lol:

Yeah, galactically stupid is funny and sad 'cause it's true about Superman!

BTW, does anyone know how those Champions stats translate into real world stats?  I know how DCH RPG does but I'm pretty sure that translation doesn't apply here.
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Captain Kal

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Gary
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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2005, 05:00:41 PM »

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
Yeah, galactically stupid is funny and sad 'cause it's true about Superman!


I think it's more a reflection of the difference between stories and games. In the latter, a player is naturally going to want to know exactly what his/her character can do and use those capabilities to their limit -- unless the game is so unchallenging that the player can win easily without using those capabilities.

Quote from: "Captain Kal"
BTW, does anyone know how those Champions stats translate into real world stats?  I know how DCH RPG does but I'm pretty sure that translation doesn't apply here.


Generally for base stats (STR through COM), 10 is an average human, 11-20 is good but still considered normal. Persons with very extensive training but still normal human physiology might get up to 40. For figured stats, an average person might have PD 2, ED 2, SPD 2, REC 4, END 20, STUN 20. Again, someone who's good but still "normal" could have up to twice the average values, and someone who's abnormally good but still human could have up to 4x them.

As far as the actual interpretation of the numbers, the general idea with most of them is that every +5 points makes the stat twice as effective, whatever that means for the particular stat. A person with a 10 STR, if I remember right, can lift 100 kg, whereas someone with a 15 STR can lift 200 kg, and so on. There are exceptions; twice as much STUN or BODY means it takes twice as many hits to knock you out or kill you (respectively) and that doesn't go up exponentially. SPD gives the number of attacks or full movements you can make in a game turn (theoretically twelve seconds, but can include infinite amounts of dialogue time), which also goes up linearly.

Not sure whether any of this answers your question. Oh well.

Disclaimer: My knowledge of Hero/Champions only extends as far as the fourth edition (the "big blue book").
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